Gay Rights

wow, that totally seems like something Jesus would do. i hope people start coming to their senses and stop practicing such a hate filled, hypocritical religion.

As a lifelong Catholic this action by Bishop Tobin disgusts me. Using the Eucharist as a political weapon is a heinous sin for which Tobin will pay dearly when he goes before God for judgment.

However, I would like to remind Dan and others that Catholicism is not hate filled or hypocritical. However, some of those that profess it most certainly are.

The disconnect between Catholic leaders and actual Catholics has never seemed to be more visible. Catholic leaders continue to take crazy actions like this, while many folks in the pews actually want to see reproductive rights and civil rights for gays and lesbians, not to mention stem cell research.

For as exciting as 2009 has been for LGBT rights, with several new states recognizing gay marriage, this year is also going to be known as the year where the institutional Catholic Church decided to go nuclear on gay marriage.

OK. That's It! Time to start taking action against these god damned church groups once and for all! They are stepping WAY over the line of influence on civil affairs - once known and respected as "The Wall of Separation Between Church and State," since Thomas Jefferson coined the phrase and demanded such a strong demarkation at our country's founding. 

This is just one example of the Catholic Church pressuring their members who are elected to represent ALL their constituencies to support certain initiatives and oppose others as the Vatican sees fit.

If legislators like Rep. Patrick Kennedy gave into this pressure it would be exactly what the country was whipped up into a frenzy about back when JFK was running for President. The big fear Republicans were pushing then was that, if elected, he would be taking orders from the Vatican rather than representing all Americans (JFK's addressing this inanity became one of his best speeches of all time). 

It's time to rebuild the wall between Church & State and fortify it for modern times and the future. GET ALL RELIGIOUS INFLUENCE OUT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS! START BY IMPOSING TAXES ON ALL CHURCH-AFFILIATED ACTIVITIES THAT CANNOT PASS THE TEST OF ANY OTHER 501(C)(3) CHARITABLE, TAX-EXEMPT ORGANIZATION.

NO SPECIAL RIGHTS FOR RELIGIOUS PEOPLE OR CHURCHES! 

As with any other 501 (c)(3) org, we also need to enforce STRICT LIMITATIONS ON CHURCH GROUPS' ABILITY TO INTERFERE IN OUR ELECTIONS by funding candidates and referendums such as Maine's Question 1, heavily funded by Catholics from around the country and California's Prop 8 - heavily funded by Utah's Mormon Church. 

The Catholic church is organization dedicated to intolerance. Since the Catholic church is an organization popular with intolerant conservatives, tolerant people who support LGBT rights shouldn't step into a Catholic church because depending on that church means accepting their intolerance and there are more tolerant churches. For people who are Catholic, it's unfortunate that the Bishops are intolerant conservatives but at that church's reputation is declining among tolerant people.

This is just one of many reasons why I am no longer Catholic. I couldn't stand the hypocrisy, and this was 30 years ago. I think that if people are offended by what their religion teaches, then they have a moral obligation to themselves to end their association with it. They are not losing anything, but gaining peace of mind and a much better perspective on humanity.

I remember being told that a person could not receive communion if they committed 'mortal sins' and did not confess them to a priest; so a person could do horrible things, but as long as they confessed them, they were OK, but a person may have a conflict of conscience vs. the scriptures and they are caste out as unsalvageable. I stopped trying to figure out the rationale for the basis of the Catholic Church and just decided it was not what I believed. I was asked by many people later if I believed I would be saved; it was then that I realized "saved from what?"

I could understand the hold the Catholic Church has on people and fully understand why not being able to receive communion is a real slap in the face to a truly faithful servant, but I feel that this litmus test is not worth the effort if it causes one to question ones own personal and moral beliefs, and basically makes them an outcaste just for believing something they view as fundamentally right.

Do I understand we now have non/anti Catholic homosexuals not even in the Church presuming to dictate to the Bishops the proper governance of it's members? What self indulgent arrogance.

You people know as much about the Catholic Church as I know about DNA. It is very amusing reading the nonsense here. The Church has watched every nation and idiology born and die for 2000 years and has survived them all. The feeble thoughts here are simply amusing.

I don't see what the big issue is here. Like any community or institution, the church has the right to call it's members to abide by the standards and practices that define it as an institution. If people disagree with these, they can leave the community. It seems like many people want to have their cake and eat it too.

Yeah, whatever. I second your yawn, Thomas. The Catholic Church is nothing but arrogance personified. I love the hypocrisy of a clergy which is heavily gay (and that includes the bishops) and who have a serious disconnect from reality trying to boss Catholic politicians around, threatening them with loss of Communion if they do not toe the line and attempt to force Catholic anti-abortion and anti-gay laws on the rest of us who may or may not be catholic.

Actually, I don't want to tell the bishops a goddamn thing...I would love to kick the lot of them roundly in their asses and tell them to wake up and that this is the 21st Century, not the 15th. The Pope is no longer a major player on the world stage and there is no inquisition to force us to do a damned thing. But they wouldn't change their minds...they have no minds to change. Fuck the lot of them.

Actually, as a Catholic gay man, I must agree with Robert Smith's comment in so far as commenters knowledge of Catholicism and the Catholic Church. However, I do not share his feelings about people's thoughts being "feeble." The sad fact is the majority of Catholics, priests and bishops included, are woefully ignorant of their religion. The failure to teach is on the part of those who ought to do so, but Catholics are also responsible to learn.

It bothers me that so many who know so little of Catholicism make such sweeping and broad generalizations. Also, the intolerant attitude toward Catholics is, to be blunt, appalling and hypocritical. You ask for tolerance and acceptance and yet you refuse to be tolerant and accepting. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. We will never gain acceptance and tolerance, or even be heard, if we refuse to accept, be tolerant, and listen.

On a more personal level, when you dismiss Catholics or dismiss commenters with remarks such as "yawn" "whatever" or "fuck the lot of them" keep in mind you are dismissing individual human beings. And there are few greater evils than that.

Boo fucking hoo! When has the Catholic Church ever respected the humanity or the intrinsic worth and dignity of GLBTQ people without some sort of ridiculous caveat that we are welcome IF we are willing to live a celibate life? When is the Roman Church going to fully accept the right of women to control their bodies and made reproductive choices for themselves? The Catholic Church disrespects my civil rights as a GLBTQ American by sticking its nose in where it is not wanted--namely the fight for marriage equality. The Roman Catholic Church disrespects me as a woman by saying it can interfere in an effort to restrict abortion as much as it possibly can.

You may like living in a church run by Herr Obergruppefuhrer Ratzinger but I don't want him having even a little say what goes on in this country. We all know the Church is taking a reactionary tack with him as Pope, but well since I left Rome 31 years ago, I don't feel like playing. Neither does most of the GLBTQ community--the part with self respect.

When has the Church ever been tolerant towards us? When it was burning us at the stake? When it has been doing everything it possibly can to derail LGBTQ rights? When it tells me that I should opt for a life of celibacy because I am supposedly "disordered" and "intrinsically evil." Maybe you like engaging in this sort of spiritual S&M--many Catholic GLBTQs seem to love to let the Church walk all over them. That is your choice. But this is one ex-Catholic who will NOT let them walk all over me and I will fight them every way I can until all GLBTQ people in this country have full rights.

The Catholics and the Mormons poured huge sums into defeating marriage equality in California and Maine...I think "fuck the lot of them is a pretty mild retort. They close local parishes and threaten to withhold social services from the poor in Washington, D.C. if the city council enacts marriage equality in local law. Nothing I could ever say could ever approach the vulgarity of their actions. They should have their tax exemptions taken away and I hope some lawyer will be able to find a way to do so. So don't lecture to me about "tolerance".

What in the hell does the Religious Wrong have to say to us that we have not heard thousands of times? Accept. No I am NOT going to accept second-class status. I am an American who has civil rights, amongst them the right to marry, even if that right has yet to be acknowledged fully in law. I don't care to hear what the Church has to say. I don't care to "dialogue" because it always boils down to the bigots talking down to GLBTQ people as if we were children. So until the Catholic Church wants to treat me as a full human being with rights, I have nothing to say to them and they have nothing I or any other GLBTQ person needs to hear.

Whatever. So sorry that I couldn't be submissive enough for your taste. You may wish to submit yourself to the nonsense dished out by the church. I do not. There is nothing wrong with being gay and the sooner the Roman Catholic Church learns to live with the fact that we have rights and that it does NOT rule this country, the better.

The Catholic Church has always tried to exert some degree of control over the US and local governments, but usually by more subtle and hidden means. If the Church is now ready to adopt a publicly political stance on these issues, perhaps they are equally ready to give up their tax-free status and start making a financial contribution to the government they are trying to control. After all, isn't keeping their political mouth shut one of the conditions for maintaining that tax-free status?

Gee the Catholic church must really be afraid of Gays.  I wish they went after pedophiles gays and straight with this much vigor. I too, also wish they struck to religious matters.

I was born a Catholic, but changed when I began to think. I belomg to the religion of love.  My guess is the Catholics are going to lose people over this.  Too many formal religions seems to TWISTED to be full of hate.

If one wants to see hate, one need look no further than the so called 'gay community'. Barbra McNamarra. Scott may well be "gay" and receive Holy Communion, while the single or married hetrosexual beside him may not. ALL of them are called to be chaste by the Church, which only repeats the word of the Christ who founded her. No 'gay' person is sort to be any more chaste than any hetro person. The teaching applies to all equally. New churches were founded by those who didn't want to really follow Christ, but wanted to appear to for various reasons. These people now think that Christ and His church should follow them. I don't think it will fly at judgement. I can't see God being interested in the feeble opinions of human beings.

Loan Lightoller, you place a great deal on the fact that you are American and have rights.Might I suggest you take your passport with you to judgement. Good luck. How did you put it? Boo hoo, I'll leave the expletive to the educated. 

There are millions and millions of Americans who are Catholic / Christian, who pay taxes and who have just as much right to their views being represented at a political level as the 'gay' community.

And for the record, the Church denying communion to the faithful is an act of charity. St Paul tells us in Scripture, if one recieves communion unworthily one brings condemnation upon oneself. It is just that a Bishop would seek to protect the faithful, even from themselves at times, wether 'gays' like it or not!

wow, i mean, i knew the church was always against LGBT rights and being pro-choice but stem cell research???? OMG, some people need that to survive! its an advance in the field of medicine!! how is that in ANY WAY going against their "word". Millions of lives can be saved through stem cell research, and they dont want that?? this is freakin crazy and hilarious, they dont realize they're going insane!

killing off a new breakthrough in science that can help save lives for the sake of what? they're not even doing this for their god anymore! its all for the selfish preferences of their religious leaders...

god isn't even a part of this anymore, he's gone far away lookin down at the catholic church saying "what have you done..." the church is merely a business now, earning off donations being spent on statues made of ivory and advertising.

and like any business, the only way to stop'em is to cut off thier resources... (a.k.a opening the eyes of catholic people...that...well...their church is nuts...)

Robert, it is the Church which has brought this so-called hatred on itself. It has for centuries treated its GLBTQ adherents as less-than-human, placing burdens on them the heterosexuals would never consider placing on themselves except voluntarily. GLBTQs have NO CHOICE--they are not permitted to marry. I LIVED this in the 1970s and would wish it on no one. The church places a GLBTQ person in a position where they follow their healthy God-and-Goddess given impulses and then the person is condemned as a sinner.

What a cold, legalistic belief you have, Robert. My Pagan faith tells me that I am loved and that if I do not learn all the lessons I need to, I will return again to learn more. If I have, I have the choice of remaining in the Summerland. It has been as a Pagan that I have started to learn to love myself and realise that, yeah, I'm human and learning and making mistakes is all part of the journey. I work with the Gods and Goddesses to walk my path so that when I stand before them after I die, I can say I gave it my best. No more the cold, legalistic, unfeeling religion--or rather a religion which feels only for heterosexuals. The "queers" can just learn to struggle with their "sin" and realise that "life isn't necessarily fair" and all the other bullshit you Roman Catholics use to keep us on a second-class tier.

The God and Goddess don't demand ridiculous, impossible things from us. They placed either a straight or GLBTQ orientation within us and do not expect us to live a cold, lonely, celibate lives. What kind of sadistic crap is this?! A god that would do such a thing is NO god I will worship!

I know many Christians who are loving, accepting human beings and I respect their faith as they respect mine. We are on this earth to help one another along the path of life, no to be sadistic judges, "laying on others burdens we ourselves do not want to or cannot bear". Remember the Pharisees? Well, that is what Catholicisim and Eastern Orthodoxy (the Christian sects I am most familiar with).

Careful, Mr. Smith, about threatening others about the judgement. When you go beyond, you may just find out that you will have to return in another life and learn some very unpleasant lessons. See, I can threaten, too.

As for your snide comment: Yes, I AM an American and I will NOT shut up and quit demanding my rights. YOUR rights and those of the Christianist community STOP where they violate MY civil rights and the civil rights of NON-Christian Americans. I will not do a damned thing to increase the Christianist comfort level because that comfort level involves denying me the right of something as simple, natural, and right as legally marrying the woman that I love. You Christianists can see LGBTQ only as sex. It goes much deeper than some imagined perversity which is sexually acted out. It is as much the fibre of who I am as heterosexuality is that of a straight person. I love this woman, want to devote my life to her, I would die for her if I had to. She is MY EVERYTHING as I am hers. HOW DARE you Christianists demean my love for my spouse!! We are MARRIED (yes, civilly MARRIED in Canada, which fortunately isn't a Neanderthal state) and what goes on in our private lives and our bedroom is NOT sin, no matter how much people like the Pope want to make it out to be so.

So, Robert, the hate has come from the Christianist and other monotheistic relgions for centuries, if not millenia. For most of that time, GLBTQ people have dealt with that hatred and they still deal with it on a daily basis. HOW DARE YOU COMMENT ABOUT TOLERANCE when the ONLY way you and others will accept us is if we will agree that we are sinners and our loves dirty and filthy, lust filled acts. Well I am here to tell you we are not and our lovemaking is not. Deal with it!

Being for gay marriage shouldn't mean you don't get to take communion. That is hypocrisy.

It's really inspiring to see people stand up fearlessly to the pig-headed apologists and defenders of the fascistic Catholic Church at last! loan, Dave, Barbara, Thomas, you rock! 

Don't you just love the tired old bullshit that jerkwads like "Robert Smith" repeats here that "the Church has watched every nation and idiology born and die for 2000 years and has survived them all?" AS IF 2 fucking millennia of totalitarian rule based in fear-mongering and superstition, enforced by pogroms, deadly inquisitions and occasional ethnic cleansing is something to brag about! Bully for you, Catholic Church!

Catholics say: "Yes, our ideology has keep generations of people submissive and scared to death for 2000 years, and we're gonna keep right on going! If you think things are fucked up now - wait till you see what we have in store for the world 2000 years from NOW!

Those obscure ancient cult writings they base everything on will be twice as irrelevant then - EXCEPT if these idiots truly get their way, making sure Armageddon happens the way they believe it will as written about in their scary bible. After the final nuclear showdown between the East & West -as they have interpreted and resigned themselves to it, the earth will once again be reduced to a primitive wasteland.

Christians - including Catholics - truly believe that we are headed toward Armageddon - and soon. They are, in fact, counting on it. And they are more and more working toward bringing it about. Born Again Christian George Bush was quoted as saying that the reason he perpetuated the war in the Middle East in order to fulfill scripture.

If that nuclear showdown happens and if any humans are left, after several generations of relearning the basic rudiments of thought they will be ready to believe anything. Again. Like they were when those stories in the bible were first spoken & repeated, long before they were ever written down.

Robert Smith here says it right out: "Might I suggest you take your passport with you to judgement."

In the Christian mind judgement is what happens at Armageddon. Smith is not referring to some metaphorical or mythological idea. They REALLY believe this stuff is going to happen. They believe they are running out of time before the end of the world, which is most likely why they are beginning to feel so emboldened. 

This desperate situation could push your run-of-the-mill christian fundamentalist to the level of a muslim suicide bomber. We need to do something to wake people up about this before these fundies start wrapping themselves in explosive girdles.

I agree, Al. We must take them on and expose the danger of the Rpature-ready and other fanatic Christianist groups. I was thinking much along the lines of your post shortly before checking here. The more ranatic amongst the Christianist are perfectly capable of doing something along the lines of the suice bombers.

The more tolerant moderate Chrisians should know that they are potentially in Christiansit sights as well. To the fanatics, these people are not Christian enough, in fact in the eyes of the crazier groups they are considered apostates.

We must fight this in every legals, cultural and any other way we can. It's groups like this that give me an idea of why the Romans considered hem dangerous--and make no mistake, the Christianists are every bit as dangerous as the Islamists.

When I was growing up as a Catholic most of the other Catholics I knew found in their faith a drive for social justice, what I would later understand to be leftist beliefs but at the time I just thought of as being a good Catholic, many attended demonstrations for equal rights for women, for the environment, for nuclear disarnament, people did what they could to help the poor and the homeless because that's what their faith told them to do, they were also involved in fighting for justice for those in central America who suffered under right wing governments. This sort of Catholicism was officially put down by the current pope in his former role as, I forget the title but it was something like defender of the faith or whatnot, he said it was against the teachings of the Catholic Church to support left wing social justice causes, I believe he actually excommunicated a number of bishops in central America over it, or at least he threatened to do so, its been quite a while so I don't remember all the details. Anyways it was around that point, when I found out that what I considered good holy work was antithetical to the Catholic Church's beliefs and that one could be excommunicated for it that I really started to question my Catholic beliefs, I'm now an atheist after trying to reconcile myself to other Christian sects for many years and not succeeding, what really ended my belief in god was when I read the bible for myself cover to cover. I know that the Catholics I grew up admiring would support equality for gays and lesbians, stem cell research and the full inclusion of women in the church, they found love and compassion in their faith and a dedication to social justice where so many seem to find hatred and intolerance today, they were more concerned about what was morally right than they were with what the church leaders had to say. I wonder how so many could have found the drive to advance social justice where today they find the drive to block social justice developments, it was the same religion except one focused on love while the other focused on forcing people to abide by a narrow set of rules. I imagine the leftist Catholics are still out there but they now keep their faith to themselves to avoid being punished by their church leaders, what a shame.

As charitable organizations that get tax exempt status churches of whatever denomination have no business interfering in political matters. They are free to deal in matters of religion but should have no say over the secular world as no one's religious beliefs should be forced on anyone who doesn't share them. If they continue to interfere in political maters they should lose their tax exempt status since that gives them an unfair advantage over other political groups and organizations who do pay taxes.

To all those who oppose Gay Marrage,  it is not a matter of disagreeing but it is matter of Law, Thank God! We can enjoy separation of Church and State here but other parts no! What different does it make if a choice is given to us and everybody.  Like abortion not everybody is in favor it but it does exist, it needs to exist, for those people that need to have it.  If there is any debt to God, it is they who will pay for it not You!!!!!!!!!! With all due respect, how does it stop you from living? If it does you need to see a psychiatrist!

To all those who oppose Gay Marrage,  it is not a matter of disagreeing but it is matter of Law, Thank God! We can enjoy separation of Church and State here but other parts no! What different does it make if a choice is given to us and everybody.  Like abortion not everybody is in favor it but it does exist, it needs to exist, for those people that need to have it.  If there is any debt to God, it is they who will pay for it not You!!!!!!!!!! With all due respect, how does it stop you from living? If it does you need to see a psychiatrist!

Dave Hershey, you don't know me and yet you charge me with many offenses. I'll look at a couple. You don't believe I would fight for your right to free speech. I already have. You think I don't call you faggots because I'm concerned about what you or others might think. I have on the back of my truck, THERE IS NOTHING GAY ABOUT SODOMY. As for pissing off 'the wrong faggot'. There is much you don't know about me, it is enough that you take comfort in knowing that if I do piss off the wrong faggot, it is unlikely to be a problem. Many of the liberties you claim are as a direct consequence of the commandments we  seek to ignor. By the way, hetro sexual people that 'gays' subsidise provide children which in turn provides a future for America. Do you seriously think your subsidy covers the cost? I provided no bigotry, I simply pointed out clearly the teachings that had been totally mis represented with regard Scott. As for pissing 'the wrong faggot'. You seem to think that I hate 'gays'. I never said that, others did. This lot doesn't need anyone to say anything, they'll fill in the blanks as they please anyway.

As for Reverend Boony, had I your intellect, I'd have my lips stitched. You'll forgive me if I don't bother with your nonsense.

loan lightoller. I could easily address your rant, but I really don't have endless time answering dozens of people and their far flung mis information. You may think as you please. You people collectively can put so many words in yourselves you need no help from me. Carry on.

Well, Robert, since we are all your intellectual inferiors over here, might I suggest you find a Christian board? Maybe the "Christians" over at the Virtue Online might be more your cup of tea? Their homohatred should be virulent enough for you. You come here to push your hate on GLBTQ people who frankly have enough hate on a daily basis to last a lifetime. I really don't give an airborne copulation what you think--bottom line is, you show your contempt and hatred by your scurrilous bumper sticker. I get so tired of this "I don't hate gays. I just don't think they should have the same rights as other Americans."

You and all your homophobic allies make me sick.

loan Lightoller. I addressed boony, if you find his comments in any way intelligent, then yes I would question your intelligence as well. I nowhere suggested you my 'intellectual inferiors', you simply confirm my point, you make it up as you go along. You are a professional victim.

I am seriously thinking. What place is it of anybody to tell you whether or not you are to take Communion. Especially whether or not they Can! Whether Gay Straight Black White Its a choice of your own that should not be taken away because of the judgmentmental church followers.  However i am of the Gay's that think that it should not be thrown into the catholic church's or any church for that matter specifically. I don't know about you but i go to church to worship, give thanks, and be judged  by the all mighty himself. Not the people of the church.

Robert Smith, you cad! You sully the name of the great original Robert Smith of the Cure. He is a real poet, not a bumper sticker charlatan. There is nothing poetic about "THERE IS NOTHING GAY ABOUT SODOMY." Sounds like you are crudely trying to claim sodomy as something that only straight couples can legally do (only true before Lawrence v Texas 2003). We know you truck-driving straight folks are big old sodomites (I used to hitch-hike a lot) but WE don't go around saying "there is nothing straight about sodomy." Learn to share and play well with others!

Especially (to be clear) if you are using the word sodomy in its most common meaning and context: ass-fucking. Of course you straight guys are into it, both giving and getting. I know a lot of cool straight men (and wives of men who are less than forthcoming but open to their gay male friends) who talk about using strap ons in addition to fingers and fists. And we also know there are a lot of you straight guys who don't mind giving each other a hand now and then. A little head, here and there. Doesn't mean you are gay. No, especially if you have a bumper sticker saying so. And now I get it! That's like a license to butt-fuck with your buddies and not have to think of yourselves as gay, isn't it?  

As for the idea that we homos need to be submissively thankful to heterosexuals for having sex that makes the babies that will continue the human race - HA!!! Give me a break! As if we can't perform the same sex acts that you do, whether we prefer to or not. Of course, we tend to be a whole lot more responsible with our actions than heterosexuals are when those acts might lead to the creation of new life. We ONLY do it for that purpose! This leads to a many many fewer unwanted children. And NO ABORTIONS (except when some hateful straight guy rapes one of my lesbian sisters). There are still plenty of homosexuals who still feel repressed and fearful of coming out because of the kinds of tough-guy posturing of bible-thumping pussies like this Robert Smith (spit) and the psycho babblings of the Catholic Church that the poor repressed queers take too seriously. They don't know any better. But they are true faggots at heart, totally homosexual. And THESE too are people who are having loveless sex producing litters of children who will be continuing the human race. 

As if that's even a problem. Ever here of overpopulation? Have Catholics yet caught up to the idea that you can't just go fucking irresponsibly making ten and more kids for each parenting couple? Rhythm method my ass. Both my Partner (youngest of 11) and myself (second youngest of 8) are the result of the Catholic Church's long-held laughable theory that every sperm is sacred (since it could be Jesus coming back!).

Anyway, all you assholes who still don't get it, just fuck off, will ya?  

Al, you wouldn't know what I'm into but I will give you a hint. I don't spend my entire life thinking about what takes up less than 10% of it. I haven't bothered answering you because it is clear there are places especially constructed to house people like you, and it has nothing whatever to do with being 'gay'. You have serious issues.

what I truly do not understand how can the leaders of the Catholic Church and its Followers can so easily believe in destroying a life- Can it be their religious right? What religion defends that? Do you know? Perhaps, I missed the course where religions had the right to not only to take a stand like this, insinuate itself into politics, and to actually respect those that destroy lives and give them the ammunition to do so?

Poor Al. See a doctor, you desperately need one.

Robert, you say this garbage and have this bumper sticker and Al throws a little of what you have thrown at us and you have the nerve to say he has problems. Why? What problems. It would seem to me that someone like you who comes onto a blog where he is not particularly welcome, spews the crap you have and when some person like Al spews it right back, you claim he has problems and desperately needs a doctor. I would sumit that the fact that GLBTQ people push the buttons in you that they do, you should see a doctor about yor tendency to project onto others.

Robert Smith, you have no idea how desperate I am! But don't say "poor Al." I do not need an ounce of your fucking pity you arrogant turd! My desperation is not for the need of a doctor: I have a very good one right here. He takes excellent care of me and we make each other feel REAL GOOD, real often! In ways that you can only imagine!

By the way, that was a great hint you gave about what you're into a few posts back, "I don't spend my entire life thinking about what takes up less than 10% of it." 

You obviously need to get laid more often. I do pity you for your pathetically guilt-ridden sex-life (or lack thereof, more likely). If you weren't made to feel so guilty and dirty and sinful about it maybe you could actually talk about it using language like an adult would instead of alluding to "what takes up less than 10%" of your entire life. You could have just as well chosen to spell it out, "s-e-x," like you did when you were a six year old child yourself.

That's what the Catholic church does to people - makes them mentally retarded in terms of sex as well as superstitions and fairy tales. You don't still believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, do you? No - that would just prove beyond a doubt that you are retarded. But you still believe in Jesus Christ, don't you? It's all the same fairy tale, retard! Grow up. There is nothing to respect in anyone who has never questioned the bullshit they are fed by the church and all other authorities. To question it or not is a choice. Most people don't because they are just lazy, weak, easily frightened and therefore insecure.

And it's clear that by the braggartly way you throw it out there that you spend less than 10% of your little brain thinking about sex that you assume that I (like all homosexuals in your mind?) spend a much greater percentage of our entire lives with our minds in the gutter than you do. I'm sure it's true. But it's nothing like what you think. We live in the adult world where there are actually ways of integrating our lives so that we can be effective and happy in our jobs, in our pastimes, with our families and friends and in our sex lives without it fucking us up in the head so much that we feel we have to keep tabs on it or suffer the wrath of some imaginary anti-sex god (Oh, I bet you have a good quote from St. Paul running through your mind right now, don't ya?)  

Yeah, Al, I never understood why most of these homophobes seem to zero in on the sex part of GLBTQ life. I certainly don't think about the 24 hours a day, but like you, I have a wonderful "therapist" (*wink*). I suspect that all these people who are so virulently anti-marriage equality tend to focus in on the sex part of GLBT life because they can revel in the "squick" factor and congratulate themselves on being so "normal". Well, like an old nun friend of mine used to say, "What's normal? Normal is BORING!!" Also fundamentalists of whatever religious persuasion seem to fixate on "sex". And I would know this how? Because I used to be very fundamentalist Catholic (as in Society of Saint Pius X, which isn't as fundamentalist as you can get in Catholicism, but pretty damned close). At the time I was really doing the whole thing of "struggling with lesbianism". I think the tide very slowly started to turn when a priest told me that gays and lesbians should be burnt at the stake. Ironically when I told a VERY traditional priest what the other one had said, he got majorly pissed. Not at me, but the other priest. But back in that time, a lot of the agro at GLBTQ people had to so with sexual stuff. It has taken me a really long time to get where I am, but every step of the way has been worth it.

Mental illness is another canard some of the fundies like to throw at us (hence their attachment to quack practices like "reparative therapy". Gee, didn't the APA take homosexuality off the list of mental illnesses? Didn't it just say that "reparative therapy" is at best worthless and at worst harmful? "Reparative therapy" is useless, yet fundies still tout and believe in it. Believing in something that has been proven wrong or non-existent (like a "cure" for homosexuality) is more a sign of mental illness than a GLBTQ orientation will ever be.

I believe it is the fundies who have a mental problem and that mental problem can be summed up in one word: intolerance. They cannot stand the thought that not only are there people with different sexual practices (all of which are practiced by heterosexuals, BTW) but those people are actually well-adjusted and happy with their lives. The fundies would be happy only if GLBTQ people were as they were imagined to be in the pre-Stonewall era (think Boys In the Band)--unhappy and secretly (or not-so-secretly) wishing to be straight, with a big dose of internalised therapy. Those people still exist (witness groups like Exodus, Courage, etc.) but they are a small portion of the GLBTQ population. Fundies absolutely cannot stand the fact of a happy well-adjusted GLBTQ people.

Fundies need a doctor far more desperately than you ever will, Al. But of course you already know that.

Why do they zero in on the sex part? You must be joking, read your own posts. You people understand yourselves entirely by what's between your legs, which is why I suppose you can't relate to the vast majority of humanity. Probably why you are such a tiny percentage of it. Al, I do pity you, you truely are pathetic in the fullness of the word.

Ioan, your story of courage and struggle makes me feel proud to be in your acquaintance. And I am happy for you having found happiness at last.

It's true and completely obvious to me that the whole problem fundies have with LGBTQ people is their difficulty in overcoming the "squick" factor as you call it. I guess there are plenty of places in the bible where you can find sexual references that can be stitched together to make sex into a vile, disgusting, horrible, ugly and shameful act that you only inflict on the person you love - as long as they are of the opposite sex and have gone through the proper channels to be "married."

I also believe that it is easy to see how the practice of religious fundamentalism, as a way of life, has many of the earmarks of severe mental illness. I think the most shameful thing that the Catholic Church and other Christian sects do is exploit their followers' propensity toward feeble-mindedness (as well as what can be considered normal insecurities) in order to perpetuate their belief system. I can understand their collective desperation about the dilemma they find themselves in.

With nothing else to prop up the artifice of their faith - other than people's weaknesses and fears - and with the rise and spread of education and communication fueled by the ever-exhilarating speed of advancing technologies the old superstitions that kept all religions afloat for so long don't have a leg to stand on. Of course the Church feels threatened. They have no real reason to exist anymore. They appeal to a lower and lower denominator of society and seem now to be pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel, intellectually. That's where you hit raw emotion that clouds out all reason and thus you have a very potent force for rampaging through politics and bringing down the worst kind of change that you can imagine if we let them. Though their numbers are dwindling they can still have an impact as we have seen - largely because too many rational people are so turned off to politics now - since the religious right assholes got so heavily involved - that they can't be bothered to vote.  

Al, I didn't tell the 'us' they had issues dear boy, just the sick little puppy, that's you. You just love the sexual references don't you, a slave to your own gratification. Do you even have a choice anymore, you poor sod.

Robert, he is not saying that he wants you neither is he a slave to his gratification but the choice of whether to choose to be a slave is taken away from him, I think?  Tell him exactly what you mean I believe I have said enough.  Good luck,  Al????????????

The problem is they perceive a hatred from me that simply doesn't exist, and the solution is to be as vulgar as possible I assume to anger me. The 'there is nothing gay about sodomy' sign has nothing to do with them, it is a reference to the marketing stradagy of changing the term sodomy to 'gay'. I am a spade is a bloody shovel man and I call things as they are, in season and out, even if it is detrimental to me. I don't hide from my own shortcomings and they are many, so I don't gloss over others either.

That may be how some see it, but to me sodomy is simply a term that describes an activity that is millenia old. It is a term that has been used for millenia. I personally don't see the need to change the term, other than to dress one thing up as another. That is deception. Nor do I subcribe any hatred to one who practices it, though they believe I do. How people percieve who I am is not my concern, nor do I have any control over it. I simply say what I think and they will make that decision. As for hatred, if we hated everyone who did things we didn't like, would we ever talk to anyone? 

Is there a hillbilly translator in the house? As a professional linguist, I can't even make any sense out of the way the words above fit together, much less find any contextual meaning in them other than, perhaps, the author's obsession with hateful ass-fucking through the ages with people he never talks to? 

Anyone else want to take a stab at this cryptic message?

The idea Al has is to spew his childish nonsense in the expectation of the other just conceding. Anyone with an IQ and intheir right mind I'm sure could judge for themselves. You are a very sick puppy Al. And for the record my last post was in before yours in answer to Mario, that's the context. Being so profoundly intelligent I just figured as one would, that you would have worked that out. 

If your one of the enlightened, I'm grateful to be a hilllbilly.

I knew your last post was in before mine - still doesn't make a goddamn lick of sense, ya hillbilly! 

Oh, and Robert, one thing I can tell you is that when I "spew [my] childish nonsense" at least I am aware that it is exactly that: childish nonsense. 

Here is some more: If you, as a Christian, were actually going to "heaven" after you die, I would be grateful and content to spend eternity in hell! That is if heaven and hell were not just parts of the same stupid fantasies. 

If as a Christian I am 100% wrong in everything I have lost nothing at all, because the kind of filth that you spew is repugnant to me anyhow. 

If on the otherhand you are 100% wrong then you have lost everything for eternity. This simply demonstrates in definate terms what your posts consistantly demonstrate. At best you are a moron. Sad but true, and unfortuately, you may well get your wish. I have started praying for you wether you like it or not, for though I consider you a vular and disgusting creature at best, for the sake of God I will seek the best possible outcome for you, which is heaven. We'll all be friends in heaven, believe it or not.

I don't think so. I have a better idea. Why don't you just leave us alone since no one is really interested in your homophobic rantings?. This is a gay blog--not ex-gay, but pro-gay. We hear enough of this crap as it is without having it thrown at us on a pro-gay blog.

I, for one, am sick and tired of homophobes such as yourself injecting your opinion into every last GLBTQ issue that involves the Catholic Church. To most of us, the Catholic Church is irrelevant. The opinion of a hateful old queen with internalised homophobia (Benny XVI) matters not a whit to most GLBTQ people. The Catholic Church--and that includes you--have nothing to say to us that we need to hear.

Go say your prayers and work out your salvation "in fear and trembling"--worry about your own soul and not ours.

Geniuses? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You have outdone even yourself. Well done!

Robert Smith says we are all going to be friends in heaven, believe it or not. I don't know about you all but, if there is a heaven, I am still going to be speaking in favor of same-sex marriage when I'm there and same-sex marriage will be normal.

I guess that means what it is that's going to take for Robert to feel personally OK with same-sex marriage is his death -- and going to heaven. Which is what I've been saying about his kind - they're not going to change in this lifetime, so why take them seriously at all?

But let's not allow that to stop us from hoping he finds a good same-sex lover after he's dead and up there in heaven!  

The sad fact is, Sister Hanson, that you need to get your head out of the ass of your Catholic protectors and the Catholic sand and start reading factual news articles that report on all of the religious goings-on in the USA and the world.  As a Christian minister, I read no less than 6 different church magazines online and in print and they are ALL in decline in church membership.  Now, if the Catholic Church is somehow chaining their parishoners to the pews with leg irons and handcuffs, I'd suggest that you do some deep, critical research as to where you get your facts and figures.
I don't mind ignorant Catholics or non-Catholic people, but I'll be damned if I have to put up with arrogant people in a technological world in which we live in today.
One really fed up GLBT supportive straight person!!! 

God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater! And you too, Pastor Melby! 

I shouldn't be commenting on this, because I already know that the result will be all attacks.  But here goes nothing.

"in a move that's being seen by many as the politicization of a Church practice that's supposed to be seen as the epitome of peace."

Okay, the Eucharist IS supposed to be a peaceful celebration of the Lord, but what non-Catholics may not understand, is that Catholics truly believe that in Communion, they are actually receiving Jesus Christ.  It's true, we are all sinners, but in order to receive Christ, we have to be cleansed of our sins and in the right spiritual state.  Homosexuality is considered by the Church to be a grave rejection of God's most precious gift to humans: the ability to partake in his Creation - to create new life.  Homosexual acts (any type of sodomy, or what Mr. Falafool so tastefully called "ass-fucking") and ALSO sex using artificial contraception (between straight couples) cannot produce new life, and therefore are akin to spurning God's call for us to create new life. 

Therefore, Rep. Kennedy's positions are in direct conflict with Church teaching.  He cannot publicly condone this view, advance legislation supporting gay marriage, and still expect to call himself Catholic and receive the Eucharist.  Bishop Tobin would not sufficiently be doing his job if he allowed Rep. Kennedy to proceed like that.  So it's not simply a political tactic.

"...to strip issues like poverty and social justice from the forefront of the Church, and replace them with opposing abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research."

The Church has many incredible teachings on poverty, but there is little it can actually do to further its mission to help the poor.  Millions of Catholics give money and volunteer with the poor, and Bishops openly support legislation to further social justice and bring an end to poverty.  But not many people argue with the facts that social justice should prevail and poverty should end, so the Church doesn't have to be as vocal in supporting these.  In recent years, the issues that have tilted in public opinion are abortion and gay marriage.  The Catholic Church cannot simply sit complacently and permit these sins to happen, especially when enablers are in its own congregation.  This is why Bishops are more proactively working toward these issues.

"politicizing one of their oldest traditions in Communion to simply toe a line on gay marriage that is increasingly out of step with public opinion."

Final point - the job of the Church is NOT TO BE IN LINE WITH PUBLIC OPINION!  That's a ludicrous statement.  The Church doesn't need to be popular; in fact, it never has been and never will be.  Millions of people hate the Catholic Church.  But the fact is, it's a religious institution that holds certain things to be unquestionable truths, and its followers are mainly good people who are pursuing goodness and truth in a time of much turbulence.  Bishop Tobin's decision may ultimately be unpopular, but it was the right one, considering his duties as Bishop to uphold Church teaching.  And the only wrong being done here is people like you, criticizing and trying to interfere in a religion that is larger, more enduring, and more meaningful than you could ever understand.

What a good Catholic Martyr - setting yourself up to be sacrificed in defense of the Church's honor! I'm not willing to just give you what you want - you're not gonna score any points toward your heavenly reward off of me. No, this will not be an attack on you. You haven't said anything new anyway - rather you are just piling on the same lame-ass Catholic bullshit we're so tired of hearing. 

We know it is not you - it is just what some of us believe to be the retarded teachings of the Church you parrot when you speak in terms of "truth" about the most absurd theoretical imaginings that are, by definition, the antithesis of truth.

Just because you choose to buy into the mind games that the leaders of the Catholic Church use to control you - proclaiming total non-truths, outright lies and so much made up crap to be "unquestionable truths" IN YOUR MIND - you nor your church earn any special dispensation from the requirements of logic and reason in matters of civil rights for all - Catholic and nonCatholic alike.

If Rep. Kennedy were advocating just on one side of the issue as it would affect just the congregants within his church, there would be no question about how the church leadership responds.

But, as a US Congressman, his charge is much bigger than that - his constituency includes people who the church has no hold over whatsoever. Yet the punishment allotted to him by the church for refusing to pushing the church's agenda - illegally, I might add - is clearly meant to influence the way Rep. Kennedy represents his constituency, asking him to force non-Catholics to bend to the church's retarded tenets, which have no baring on civil life. There is nothing in the law, for instance, that makes anything contingent on whether one is seen as a "sinner." That term is meaningless.

The law sanctions criminals. Homosexuality, homosexuals, sodomy (or what you got a big chuckle out of when I referred to it before - "ass-fucking" tee hee!) same-sex relations - THESE ARE NOT CRIMES IN THE UNITED STATES. As for whether they require punishment, there is no argument under the law.

My respect for Rep. Kennedy would grow immeasurably if he were to just reject church over the asinine pressures he's being faced with - LIKE ALL US ELECTED OFFICIALS TAKING OFFICE, REP. KENNEDY PLACED HIS HAND ON THE BIBLE AND SWORE TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION -- HE DID NOT PLACE HIS HAND ON THE CONSTITUTION AND SWEAR TO UPHOLD THE BIBLE. FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO PRESSURE HIM TO VIOLATE THAT SACRED OATH IS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE! 

Hm, Al...you seem to dislike the Catholic Church a bit.

Rep. Kennedy has political obligations, yes, but he also belongs to the Catholic community, which holds him to another set of obligations.  He must choose which one is more important to him.  He may not have laid his hand on the Constitution and sworn to uphold the Bible, but I assume he was baptized and confirmed and at Mass on Sundays he recites the creeds that proclaim his loyalty to Church teachings.  Despite the fact that you believe these teachings are mind-control tactics and bullshit, Rep. Kennedy believes them, or at least proclaims to.  And the fact that he has committed himself to this particular set of beliefs means he has the responsibility, in his faith community, to uphold them. 

Rep. Kennedy is a Catholic with authority and political sway, and the Church notices that.  If he's publicly supporting positions that defy Catholicism with no repercussions, it will relay the message to other Catholics that it’s okay to pick and choose which teachings to believe.  Bishop Tobin acted appropriately, sending the message that some fundamental principles in the Church cannot be debated.  I don’t really care at all that you think these principles are wrong, just as you don’t really care that I think homosexuality is wrong.

By taking on his position he is sinning; he isn't fulfilling what he pledged for himself and his community with regard to his religious life.  This failure on his part removes his good standing in the Catholic community, and he can't be permitted to receive Communion.  The Catholic Church is pressuring him to do what it teaches is good, and it can't be blamed for that.  If he values his duties as member of U.S. Congress and wants to uphold the needs of his constituency, he WILL reject the teachings of the Church...it's up to him.  And maybe he'll decide in your favor.

Anyways, politicians gain support from voters with whom they share the same religion.  This may not just be a case of the Church manipulating a politician toward its own agenda.  This may be a case of a politician masquerading as a religious faithful to gain voters' support...and now he's stuck, because he can no longer hold political positions that don't agree with his Catholic identity.  Rhode Island does have the largest percentage of Catholics in the entire country…

Well, Al...the Catholic church, ontrary to popular belief, loves martyrs!!! I'm sure Lauren has a whole box of candles lit in her honor.

One has to realize, as Martin Luther did, that not only was the RCC dishonest in their dealings with indulgences... they were crooked also in their dealings with the reading of Scripture. This is why only the church priests and monks could read Scripture.  They used the Bible much as the RRR conservatives and evangelicals do today... as a prophetic sledgehammer to keep the followers in line.  And, of course, to scare the hell out of them regarding HELL, if they didn't toe the line.  Once the congregants starting reading the Bible for themselves and started comparing what was told them and what was actually being said by Christ in the Bible, they were mad as hell @ 1960-1962.  Papa Benny Beerdrinker VI is doing his best to drag the RCC BACK INTO the closet from BCS (before common sense) of the 60's and backward.  The key word in the Catholic language up until then was FEAR. (Same as the disgruntled RRR use today). If the hierarchial powers could keep their sheeple in constant fear of losing their salvation, they would have a stranglehold on them for life, hence no threat to their power.  That should clear up any misconception regarding what really holds the church together. 

Regarding Communion, the Protestant Church looks at it in an entirely different light, that again, of knocking off the FEAR and replacing it with the common sense place of a memorial service and remembrance of what Christ did for us on the Cross (eternal salvation for all who accept it).  Why than is Christ still on the Cross in the Catholic church? He is risen, he is risen indeed!  Secondly, the Protestant church practices an open table for Communion (all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and in his resurrection are welcome); the Catholic church does not allow anyone who is not a Catholic to partake in their "Christian" Communion (quotation marks added for emphasis).  Now if Catholics and Protestants are both considered Christian, wouldn't that mean that....well... no it doesn't. 

I guess the crux of the matter is that even the Sacrament of Communion is riddled with FEAR of losing something.  FEAR plays a big part of the Catholic faith. They will swear up and down on a stack of KJ Version Bibles that they fear nothing, but you can see it in the eyes of the older believers.  Thank God the younger generation does not believe this hooey...well, they do, until they get out on their own. Then they discover they have wings of their own.

So anyway, Lauren, I'm sure you are a very nice young lady, but it's time to let go of the Pope's encyclicals and shape your Christian faith around Jesus Christ and not the church.  The church saves NO ONE!!! Jesus Christ saved EVERYONE that accepted him!!  You might want to consider that!
(Sorry for any typos, grammatical errors, etc.).

Dakotahgeo M. Div., Pastor/Hospital/Hospice Chaplain

"Jesus Christ saved EVERYONE that accepted him!!"

Kind sir, I think you're forgetting about something else that God gave to all human kind: free will.  Free will gives men and women alike the option to live for God, or to take a different path. Jesus Christ died for everyone's sins... but by no means does that mean every person in all of humanity received a one-way ticket into Heaven.  That has to be earned.

"And people wonder why church attendance is declining..."

And people wonder why the world today is falling apart...

I mean, take a step back and look at the big picture. Over time, it's evident that the world finds itself straying further and further away from religion, faith, and God.  Over time, it's also quite evident that the world in itself... is as I said before, falling apart. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Also, I'm seeing that the people on this website who are opposing the Church and its teachings are also the most vulgar. Coincidence? Haha I'm thinking no, again.

I'm not about to sit here and argue in circles because the truth of the matter is this website, and all of the posts on it, and all of the people who constantly argue against the Church and its teachings... aren't going to change the Church, its teachings, or the word of God. You can disagree, sure. You can yell and cuss and flip out and sit on your butt all day and dwell on the fact that you just don't agree with those crazy Catholics. But really... at the end of the day, you're still sititng on your butt disagreeing with things that aren't going to change.

But anyways, unlike almost all of you, who will sit here and continue cyberchatting your lives away about how much you hate the Catholic church, I'm going to leave this website and not come back. It's just that some of the posts on this websitre really got me laughing. Frankly though, nothing said on this website really and truly will matter in the end, now will it?

I might add, Lauren, that when Senator Kennedy or ANY Senator, Catholic, Protestant, Rabbi, or Imam, are elected to office, they represent the PEOPLE of their district, not just the Catholics! And ESPECIALLY the Catholic hierarchy.  That is why I emphasize this emphasis on FEAR... FEAR of WHAT??? NO CHURCH OFFICIAL takes away ANYTHING FROM ANYBODY whether they vote for, or against any churches' wishes. That is hogwash and THAT is why very few Christians and non-Christians have little or no faith in the church any more!  We need to hear more of "YOU LIE!!!" from Christians who are fed up with this Bullwinkle theology and doctrine!  We don't hate the RCC, Lauren...quite frankly, I feel sorry for it.  It seems to do well in darkness and dampness, something akin to mushrooms!  To me, the last straw was the threat of withholding of services to the poor and needy in Washington, DC if the city didn't kowtow to the demands of the RCC regarding gay marriage. Such hogwash!!!  Would Jesus return at that particular time of engagement, your tables would be flying through the air with the greatest of ease.  Jesus did NOT fool around in the Temple when the hoipoloi Jewish tradesmen were turning it into a den of thieves! WITH the permission of the Temple elders and high priests no less!!!

You need to do some serious reading of the Bible, add some Concrodances, do some cross referencing, a Commentary or two on each book of the Bible.... get going, girl! You...YOU have work to do!

Dak!

Stuart!!!  Is Robert Smith your Dad or your twin brother? You sure sound the same non-spiritually.

Godspeed, God bless....don't let the door hitcha on the way out!

Dak!

Hm, Lauren...you seem to catch on that I dislike the Catholic Church a bit. How astute. 

If you could stretch your very clever mind a little further you may actually begin to see - in your own defense of the Church - where it is that my dislike comes from. In fact, contrary to the teachings of your long-suffering Catholic overlords, it is not a prejudiced attitude in me, in that I may have no direct experience as a member of your Church. Like most Catholics I was indoctrinated against my will as an infant and fed a daily diet of Catholic detritus through my childhood and education in Catholic Schools up to and including Latin School, in preparation for the priesthood as was the path others chose for me.   

Reading the spew you have thoughtlessly blurted out here reminds me all the more why I dislike the Catholic Church and, frankly, why I fear it. By your words Catholics like you believe that a U.S. Congressman is held "to another set of obligations" that supersede his obligation to the U.S. Constitution under which we ALL live as U.S. Citizens. The statement seems to roll off your tongues so easily that it is clear you feel supremely entitled to impose the dictates of your faith on the citizenry of this nation in direct violation of our sacred Constitution.

THIS is a clue as to why I dislike the Catholic Church, lady. If you cannot convert you seek to dominate through coercion and in this way you are no better than the militant Islamic sects that dominate and control the theocratically run countries of the world, dispensing with infidels - sinners as you would call them - with severe punishments. You must be so jealous of them. They just put homosexuals to death. Boy, if you could just do that here! Wouldn't that be convenient?

This isn't about me, Al, and I'm not going to let all your negative rhetoric about prejuduce and forced indoctrination mudde up this debate.  I have no problem with homosexual people.  They're people, just the same.  I resent that you think I've been brain-washed and I'm sorry that you can't see that the Church is out to do good.  Kennedy would agree that he has an obligation as a Catholic.  This isn't about me; this is about him and his claimed commitment to something bigger than our country, for we are a country "UNDER God."

This is why I disagree with the Pastor's pure inanity.  I'll have you know, Dak, that I have indeed read the Bible.  Admittedly, not every word, but I've studied it, I've read theory, I've taken quite a few Theology classes and I believe re-reading it, which I do intend to do when I'm out of college, would probably just reaffirm what I believe now.  Yes, I'm in college, and (GASP) a Catholic college at that.  The University of Notre Dame, actually.  But back on topid - from the Bible, I can gather that yes...we are all equal in the eyes of God.  Jesus Christ came to save us all.  That does not mean, however, that we get a "Get to Heaven for Free" pass when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.  We must manifest this in our actions, and homosexual acts are in direct contradiction to everything that God wants from us.

The Cross is empty - Christ was risen - but in the glory of the resurrection it's easy to miss the important part: the sacrifice, the death.  Christ suffered for us.  So what?  So we can partake in whatever debauched activities quench our every desire, because we're saved, hooray, and it doesn't matter what we do anymore?

I don't seek to convert anyone, and as stated before, I DEFINITELY do not hate homosexuals.  I'm just rendering the teachings that I believe in (that have not in any way been indoctrinated in me against my will) - that Church officials have establshed over centuries of thought and debate, using scripture, tradition, experience and REASON.  And I find it amusing that without provocation you've projected on me this hateful, violent persona that doesn't resemble me in the least.  I would never, ever, EVER condone killing of homosexuals, or any sort of persecution for who they are.  And if the bill passes in Uganda, I'd like to be right out there picketing with the rest of you.  That's wrong.  It isn't my place to punish people for their sins; they will receive judgment at the end of this life.

Your evisceration of me just shows your insecurity and pathetic bitterness.

Oh my, oh my!!! I seem to have struck a nerve!!! I have been described by my colleagues and friends as one of the most SECURE people in my knowledge and faith.  I do believe you are the first person in my life that has labeled me as insecure... I wear that label, coming from you, as a badge of honor.  Being secure sure beats Fear!
I have no bitterness... where does that come in?  Just amusement at how easily you people can be swayed.  My best friend is a Catholic Hospital/Hospice Chaplain, he is my Executor, my DPOA, and his entire family is strongly Catholic.  He can, however, think for himself and use common sense in dealing with life and the Catholic hierarchy's swimming in their own cesspool of ancient thought.  (That ought to get your blood churning, lolol).  No, no... I admire someone who can be so wrong and I would never deny you your right to be wrong.  You just keep up the theatrics, Sweetcakes... we'll enjoy your show.
I admire your educational efforts, however. Keep working.  Sadly, it hasn't done you much good, eh? You do seem to have an adequate curriculum vitae... enjoy it.
Dakotahgeo

No, Lauren you are absolutely wrong! This IS all about you. There is nobody washing my brain - you won't hear ME spout anyone else's lines that have been scrubbed into my gray matter.

It is the WAY YOU FRAME THE DISCUSSION that makes it EXCLUSIVELY ABOUT YOU: ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN POUNDED INTO YOUR WEAK LITTLE MIND and that you have not had the nerve to even question.

No matter how you try to foist your denial and misperceptions on the rest of the world, your arguments are not valid anywhere but in your own mind and in those who agree with your stilted, Church-driven outlook on life.

Despite the concessions to religious agitators that have resulted over the years with references to "God" being inserted into our national symbols and sayings long after they were written, this is NOT a Christian Country.

There was not even a reference to "GOD" at all in the founding documents. Intentionally. Intelligently. Because at no time have all Americans had to fulfill a requirement to acknowledge the concept of God as anything. NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLIGIENCE WE ARE NOT A NATION "UNDER GOD!"

If you want to live in a country where the bible, the torah or the quoran overrules the law of the land then MOVE! they are out there but this ain't one of them. And it ain't never gonna be one either! 

THOUGH I LOVE MY COUNTRY DEARLY I REFUSE TO SAY THE PLEDGE AS WRITTEN BECAUSE MY COUNTRY HAS SEPARATED ITSELF FROM ANY RETARDED CONCEPT OF GOD AND RELIGION. It is my birthright as an American, baby, to reject god, the church and you for trying to enforce reliegion illegally in my country. So sue me.

I can say that, in my point of view, God only exists ast a symptom of mental illness and my opinion on the matter would be just as valid as yours. So eat me.

You obviously came here to martyr yourself and you are not going to shut up until you feel properly eviscerated. So go on now.  Wail and moan like the good little sacrificial lamb you are. I'm sure you'll get your 72 homosexual virgins in heaven for all you do.

"and that you have not had the nerve to even question."

Not had the nerve to question?!  Where do you come up with this stuff - like you know me personally, or as if each Catholic is a living, breathing clone of the other.  In your mind, we're all clones.  But the fact is, we're not...just as all homosexuals aren't clones of each other.  Right now YOU are stereotyping ME.  Don't you think it's wrong when your "Bible-thumping" enemies disseminate hurtful LGBT stereotypes?

I question aspects of the Church almost every day.  Papal infallacy?  I've had huge qualms with this.  Immorality of artificial contraception?  Problematic - especially when the Pope declared condom use immoral in AIDS-ridden African countries.  I don't just blindly accept things like you would love to believe.  Up until last year I considered myself pro-gay marriage...or at least had no problem with it, until I did some research before the election and changed my position.  I question, I sometimes doubt.  But somehow I always reemerge with faith intact.

You say you're not spouting someone else's lines - you think you're the first to say that Catholics are a bunch of mindless drones, thoughtlessly following the infallible word of our misled leadership?  What an original thought.

I respect your opinions.  I was just trying to defend the decision of a Bishop that has clearly been twisted into an abominable, anti-American act...when really, the person you may want to blame is the representative in this case, who is evidently also a mindless drone - a Catholic like myself.  You, however, clearly have no respect for anyone else's words, shown by your blatant vulgarity and childish impudence every time someone brings up a point of view that calls your own into question.

Wow! I can only imagine what kind of "research" you did that changed your opinion on gay marriage. I do hope you will share your expertise gained through your big Notre Dame College training in research and the scientific methods that would prove gay marriage to be an incorrect political position to take. Pray tell, where did you publish your findings for peer review? Please, I really want to read your findings! Maybe you'll change my mind too! I could even be convinced to go back to being a Catholic and eating the flesh of Christ on a cracker for fun and salvation? Incidentally, doesn't that sound more than just a little gay to you? I mean, the way you Catholics talk about eating the body of Jesus, literally, magically, through the process of transubstantiation. You are eating his human body and so that would have to include the genitalia, wouldn't it? How do you feel about that? 

Since these Born-Again Fundamentalists always love to chastise me and others for disrespecting them with my foul language and harsh judgement of them, may I just say that, to my mind, I am being much more upfront with them in ways that are way more honest than the way they approach us - smugly hiding behind the cowardly shields provided by their deference to a supposed "higher authority" that calls us abominations, sinners, damned to hell, etc. Such labels are totally equivalent to the worst that I can think of hurling right back at them in modern lingo.  

I have absolutely no respect for anyone who can't look me in they eye when they are trying to fuck me in the ass so they should not be surprised when I respond to them in an updated kind of raving lunatic language I hear when they say things like the following (taken from Lauren M's rants under the guise of - "it's not me hating you, it's god hating you"). 

Homosexuality is considered by the Church to be a grave rejection of God's most precious gift to humans: the ability to partake in his Creation - to create new life.  (fuck you)

In recent years, the issues that have tilted in public opinion are abortion and gay marriage.  The Catholic Church cannot simply sit complacently and permit these sins to happen, especially when enablers are in its own congregation.  (fuck you)

homosexual acts are in direct contradiction to everything that God wants from us. (fuck you)

It isn't my place to punish people for their sins; they will receive judgment at the end of this life. (fuck you for all time!)

Basically, if you strip away all your wringing of hands, gnashing of teeth and apologizing for your god's attitude problems, what you're saying is fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, homos. So, Lauren, don't be too offended when you hear us say fuck you right back at ya! Get it?

I couldn't agree with you more, Al. Their smug "I don't hate homosexuals. I am only repeating what God has to say about it" (filtered through centuries of self-interested, bigoted "interpretation", BTW). These people are the most self-satisfied, smug individuals I have ever met. Also putting something nicely never seems to get through their thick, bigoted skulls. Kind of like the carrot and the stick...if the carrot doesn't work, you have to use the stick.

Lauren, the part of the GLBT community that isn't hopelessly into self-loathing and self-abasement really doesn't give an airborne copulation what Roman Catholicism has to say about ANYTHING GLBTQ-related. I respect Rep. Kennedy for standing up to the homophobic, gynophobic, hopelessly out-of-date and out-of-touch with the laity Roman Church in this country. The GLBTQ population does not give an airborne copulation what your Hitler Jugend Pope, Ratzi the Nazi, has to say about us, either. Is this in any way unclear now, Lauren?

You come onto a pro-gay blog and start rattling off your homophobic, reactionary Romanist crap and when you get blasted for it by Al and others, you are so upset and shocked.  Get a clue, lady. What else did you really expect? We are not impressed by your theological credentials-- many progressive theologians' credentials are much more impressive than anything you seem able to trot out--and they say the Roman and other homophobic, bigoted churches are wrong. We don't need to be lectured to by you. And by the way since you are a woman, shouldn't you be silent? St. Paul says you should. Guess more of that fundie cherry-picking we hear so much about.

And Lauren, sweetie, get down off your cross. You put yourself in the position of being royally told off by the able people who post here. That does not make you a martyr--it makes you a provocateur.

Airborne Copulation?! Ioan, I love the sound of that! Never tried it myself but there's a first time for everything, eh?   

Well, I hear that the Mile High Club set love their airborne copulations lol.

And Laurne can't accuse me of using foul language (not that I give an airborne copulation lol).

Well, I hear the Mile High Club set love their airborne copulations lol

Wow.

How do you think I'm not being honest, Al?  What do you want me to say?  Gays are repulsive?  That you're nothing but a bunch of psychotic miscreants with seriously fucked-up sexual perversions?  I have been completely honest.  I know that homosexuality says nothing about a person's character.  There are plenty of wonderful people in the world that just so happen to be gay.  I would NOT be speaking honestly if I told you that I hated gays or thought the world would be a better place if we could just kill them all.  I cannot even tell you with complete honesty that I think gays are going to hell, because no one knows that for a fact.  The Church calls homosexual acts grave mortal sins, but like I said before, God is the only judge - and Al, somehow you managed to translate this as "fuck you for all time!"  Thanks for your attempt to paraphrase my comments, but if you somehow read into that: "Fuck You," then you must be more paranoid than I thought.  Not everyone is out to get you.  Not every Catholic hates you, even though you're quite clearly not our biggest fan.

And according to Ioan, none of you cares what the Church says.  And I've heard it over and over again - the Catholic version of Heaven doesn't quite suite your tastes for paradise.  So why does it even matter to you?  WHY are you getting so defensive?

And the RCC has been wrong before.  Maybe, just MAYBE, it's wrong about this.  But I've read all of the literature, on BOTH SIDES, and I see more truth in the side I'm defending.  But I'm not as closed-minded as you think, and I definitely never meant "Fuck You" in a single thing I've written on this website.

Now for Ioan.  I didn't just come to Change.org and decide to provoke all of the homosexuals by preaching my nonsensical Catholic bullshit.  I was googling something for a class project, found this particular article and chose to weigh in on what I thought was an innocuous decision by a good bishop.  I didn't even know what this website was.

I never claimed to be an expert in Theology.  In fact, I'm definitely not...Theology's not even close to either of my majors.  But Dak, above, scolded me for not reading the Bible, and I just wanted to clear that up.

And as far as "Fundie cherry-picking" goes, much of Scripture must be read in context.  Women weren't seen as equals in society at the time of Paul...most of his writing was shaped by the patriarchal attitudes of the time.  I know all of you will go crazy over this and say that the same can be said for any Scripture passage about homosexuality.  And that Church teaching on homosexuality is based out out-of-date, homophobic attitudes that it has harbored for centuries...blah blah.  But this question has been examined and re-examined...over and over again.  In the time of Paul, a woman's voice was subdued for no fault of her own, but simply because she was seen, by nature, to be lesser than men.  As society's views changed on this, the Church's did as well.  More modern literature, like Wojtyla's Love & Responsiblity, lays out why the Church still believes homosexuality is sinful, in spite of modern society's more accepting attitude toward it.

AGAIN - my only purpose in coming here was to try to defend the Bishop.  He's doing what he is obligated to do.  The point I was trying to make was: is Kennedy doing what he is obligated to do?  If you say he should be only concerned with the people he represents, and should continue challenging Church teaching, then why doesn't he?  THAT was my ONLY POINT.  Write to Kenendy and tell him to reject the Church, rather than sit on this website and pout about how mean Catholics are, how crazy the institution is.  Everyone's working against you, boo hoo.  You've known that forever, it seems...so the Bishop's actions should come as ABSOLUTELY NO SURPRISE.

I just want to comment on this one statement I made to Lauren...
"You need to do some serious reading of the Bible, add some Concordances, do some cross referencing, a Commentary or two on each book of the Bible...."
I need to clarify this after reading some of the comments by others here and to really apologize for some of the statements I've made also. I, above all people, should know better.
I did not mean to imply that you shoud READ the Bible... what I SHOULD have said was that more needs to be read, studied, referenced, etc.  I also should know, based on what a lot of my Catholic friends have said is that just because a church official says or believes does not mean all Catholics follow in lock-step behind the subject at hand.
Part of what I address is the fact of constant and seemingly eternal judgements against GLBT people.  We get in such a state of defensiveness that even our friends look to be our enemies.  That is wrong but rose-colored lenses also have a "dark side" to them.  The tendency to paint with an overly broad brush is sometimes/most of the time, irresistable!
With this being said, I think Lauren has been typecast and described as anything but a good person, and I have complicity in that to some extent. For that I am sorry, and it needs to be said publicly since this IS a public place.
As a result... my feeling is that this subject has been played out way beyond its life and if there are any good, positive points to be made, let them be the better part of valor from here on in.  I've been in a position of authority and UNDER authority long enough to know that, even when we do not like the rules/regulations under which we work, that fact does not change the rules... nor will it ever... unless and until the powers that be change them.
Peace, Blessings,
Dakotahgeo

LAUREN, YOU ARE ALL DEFENSIVENESS AND DENIAL. BY YOUR WORDS, WHICH CONTINUE TO DO LITTLE MORE THAN SPOUT AND DEFEND THE SAME OLD SHIT YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HONESTY IS, NOR INTEREST IN IT. I, FOR ONE, AM TOTALLY DONE WITH YOU. FUCK OFF.

Al, Dave, and Michael, I honestly don't know why these homophobic fundamentalists (of whatever stripe) even bother to come here and post their drivel. If she wants to kowtow to Bennie XVI--whatever, it is a free country. But I have yet to see one of these people come on here to do anything but to annoy and shit-stir. Nothing they say is original and I am sure the more theologically-literate on here could and have demolished several of her arguments.

What I got from Lauren M is that she really IS homophobic, despite her avowals to the contrary and that she was trying to get us pissed off in order to feed her martyr complex. I could hear the same nonsense at most Roman Catholic Churches if I wanted to...Goddess knows that there are enough of them in Phoenix. I come here to find out the latest news articles of interest to our community. Some I do not post in as they are not priorities for me...others, being of importance to me, I do post in. Lauren added nothing of any real substance to the conversation here except being an apologist for Rome...as if enough of them don't post here already.

Yep. I agree. Odd, isn't it,that she insists to the end that she came here just to defend the Bishop? "I was here to defind this Bishop, but not the Catholic Church." AS IF this were some kind of a courtroom and we had him on trial? Or, more likely in her medieval mind, a town square where the Bishop is about to be stoned for his transgression. Easy way to become a martyr - jump in front of a hurling rock or a bullet meant for a holy man! God's gotta love that.

If that poor girl is for real she is just completely full of shit and doesn't even know it - it's pathetic. As for the actions of the Bishop, penalizing an elected representative of the people - I don't recall this sort of thing making the news before. Do Bishops do that? Do they have the power in their church to do that sort of thing? They can just decide that somebody in their congregation doesn't get the goodies that everybody else does? Man, what a fascist group! Not that it's any of my business since I am anti-fascist. Interesting, isn't it, that this has also happened in Rhode Island where the governor just vetoed a bill that would allow same-sex partners to make funeral arrangements for their life partners when they die. How fucked up can one little state be? Must be because of all those god damn catholics - Lauren said there are more catholics there than any other state, proportionally I presume - since so few people choose to live there (and why the hell would they?).

Al, unfortunately, the Bishops and the hierarchy in the RCC DO have the power to do anything they want... based on their theology and doctrines. Whether or not we or the general public agree with them or not means nothing to them.  That, also, is why they are castigated by almost every religion on earth.

To their defense, they DO have the right to do anything to anyone under their rule, based on their beliefs.  Speaking for myself, I would rather go to the slaughter than believe some of the things in which they believe.

They can do what they want, think what they will think.  I am free in Christ and him only will I serve!
Dakotahgeo

WHO GIVES A SHIT???  Catholics, I have a solution for you: quit going and get a brain.  Think for yourself.  You don't need pedophile old men telling you how to live!!!

Thank you Phillip :) 

LM, you are dealing with the deluded and the possessed. Al is at best deluded, while poor George is in a far worse state, he is a traitor of the King. "Many will come in my name and say I am he, do not listen to them for they seek even to lead the elect astray'. Those who follow poor George like the blind, will follow him to the same pit. Al is even looking forward to getting there. Note however the total lack of logic. Lots of emotion and name calling, and they wonder why mainstream humanity find it laughably impossible to take them seriously. 

Welcome back, Robert...but I am so disappointed.  Twelve days away from posting and this is the best you can do???  Ummmm  Ummmm!!!
Get some more R & R and see if anyone misses you...again.

Careful George your IQ is showing.

Sorry, negative remarks will get you nowhere, much less an audience. I've been too caught up in Washington DC and Houston to care much about the naysayers.
It is heartening to see that the Catholic church's braying and honking didn't deter the City Council from voting for marriage equality. To hold the homeless and hungry hostage for the privileged church's doctrine doesn't say much for the RCC's benevolence.
The day will come when the entire social network will be under city control again. There goes the power struggle.

If you think I'm trying to get anywhere with you George your having yourself on, I'll leave you to the King. I'm talking to others George, by all means ignore it if you can. I must confess to having more time for Al than you, as I'm sure our Lord will. A couple of thoughts for those who may be listening to your like. 

Christ said, "you are Peter and on this rock I will build MY Church". Paul tells us the Church is His body. We call that the mystical body of Christ. So there is "THE" Church founded by Christ. It's HIS Church, He is building and it is His body. Christ said, "if they have hated me they will hate you also". Note George is among the 'they'. Do the clowns here really think we as Catholics are surprised that they hate the Church? That the Catholic Church should be 'relevant' for them? It doesn't work like that children. The Catholic Church is a contridiction and stands in the world as an indestructable entity, put there by an omnipotent God for the salvation of His children. The moment it ceases to be a contradiction it ceases to be relevant.

Paul said, "THE Church is the pillar and foundation of truth". The Catholic Church is the only one that claims the title. What are you pastor of George? Another pany any fly by night we'll accept the devil himself because he should be loved too group laughingly calling yourself a church? Hiding behind social justice issues as a means of declaring how charitable you are and thereby how representative of Christ? The Churches understanding of charity reaches into eternity, it is supernatural. It's chief interest pertains to the eternal welfare of the elect. Not their physical pleasure, nor their comforts. Your relevance is in fact what makes you and the rest completely irrelevant. The fact that these people think you have anything to offer simply means they are immersed in the now and happy to trade eternity for their carnal pleasures. That of course is entirely their choice, we however have been sent to call. They choose to ignore, so be it. As Jeremiah was calling and none were listening, God told him to call anyway. Who listens is not our concern, the wind will blow where it will. We are at least calling, George is again among the 'they'.

Christ said "Many will come in my name and say I am he, do not listen to them for they seek to lead even the elect astray". Since the protestant revolt from 1517, we now have about 33,000 so called christian denominational churches. There has only been 25,500 odd weeks since then. So we have had frauds like George coming at better than 1 a week in the name of Christ claiming to be His mystical body. Claiming to speak in His name. Leading God knows how many astray. You can hate the Church all you like, but the more you hate Her the easier it is to gauge where you stand with the Christ who founded Her.

They tell me She has lost Her way. She has not lost her way, she is very much on track. The fact that so many hate Her, far from showing how She has lost Her way shows only the words of Christ to be ever fresh and ever true.

The Bible they use was given to them by the Catholic Church. Without the Church you wouldn't have the bible. Given it is Her book. Given it was She who selected the works to be in the book. Given She knows why those books were selected, She and She alone has the authority to interpret it. The Church has written more about ANY 1 paragraph within the Bible, choose which ever you please, than George has written, or likely thought of the entire book.

Poor George is so far out of his league it is almost embarrassing to have to give this year two catechetical observation. Repent George, it's time.

My, my, my, more Papist arrogance from our favourite bigot, Robert Smith. No one here gives a sod what you think, mate. Go preach to the choir because no one here cares.

I'm Pagan, so I don't listen to anything that your Nazi Pope, his bishops, or you want to say to LGBTQ people. Your religion murdered those who would not willingly convert to your distorted, anti-human, anti-naure beliefs. Your religion murdered women just for being old, or property owning, or just plain uppity and calling your religion on its bullshit.

So you know, what, Bobby? Go fuck yourself and your religion. GLBTQ people are fine just the way they are, not "disordered", or "intrinsically evil", or "a greater threat to humanity than global warming", or any of the hateful slanderous nonsense Bennie XVI can come up with.

The western world is no longer Catholic, Robert. Get over it.

Thank you, Ioan!  I try to be enlightening, enthusiastic, knowledgeable, and what do we get in return?? More self-aggrandizing speeches!!  We try to be nice, and accommodating and it...just...doesn't...work with some people.  Thank God they are in the minority.
Moving on to better things to discuss, I noted above, with some delight that the Washington, DC City Council approved GLBT marriage for their city/federal district.  I think it is a heinous crime for any church to hold the homeless and needy as hostages if a city doesn't bend to the wishes of a few fanatical groups.  Patience does pay off, as we see in the Houston race for Mayor's office also.  Common sense people are finally stopping to think for themselves and not be bamboozled by the wacky rightists. It couldn't happen soon enough.
Peace to all who crave it; blessings to all who don't deserve it.

Murdered women for being old? Ha ha ha ha ha. Your history is as creative as your obvious education. You must have been in a flurry, it's hardly legible. If your not listening how did you answer? You are clever.

Christ said "The road to perdition is wide and many follow it, but the road to heaven is narrow and few find it". I hope to be in the minority George. Thanks for noticing. I notice that you have no answer to the obvious truth of what I said. Nor will you have an answer at judgement. Repent george while you still can.

It simply did not deserve an answer. No problem.  Repentance is something all people need to do, Robert.  You are immune. Your church's doctrine does not phase me in the least. Sorry!

Not the Churches doctrine, it's Christ's doctrine. As to weather it deserves an answer or not, others will judge that. You have no answer to truth. Christ is truth and your judge. You say you seek to be nice. When the antichrist comes he will be so nice, telling the people everything they want to hear. Agreeing with all their wants and desires. You go on being nice George, I'll just be truthful. I wonder if those in the temple thought Christ nice. Or the scribes. The chief priests. Those persistent in sin and unrepentant. Christ wasn't interested in nice, nor would He be interested in some base traitor leading people in the wrong direction in His name.

By the way George, for the really dumb ones among us, I haven't been quoting the Church, I have been quoting the bible that you supposedly believe in. Are you suggesting the bible doesn't deserve an answer?

Ah the arrogant Robert Smith again. I have a college education, thank you for asking. I also read from sources other than the Roman Catholic. You ought to try it sometime. You have never heard of the Burning Times when hundreds of women were burnt at the stake for witchcraft? Try googling that or "witch craze" and see what you come up with. But of course Catholics don't like admitting that part of their history, do they? Rev. Boony could fill us in more completely on the subject I am sure.

Not all of us are Catholic or Christian and we do not believe your twaddle. We do not have anything to repent of--we are as the God and Goddess created us (for those who are Pagan anyway) and we are fine just as we are. So your nonsense does not compute for me and I gather other Pagans here.

I thought my past post was quite readable. Did anyone else have trouble reading it or understanding it?

Rev. Malby I do indeed rejoice in the good things that have been happening for us of late. I am so happy that the Washington DC City Council refused to submit to politicial blackmail. I also rejoice that the Catholic and other Churches have been exposed for the hateful groups they are with their efforts to use the poor as pawns in their neverending war against GLBTQ rights. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

The Bible matters only if you are Christian. Not all of us are.

Great. Why don't you just go be truthful on some homophobic Catholic or fundie blog? Like I said, no one gives a damn and we aren't buying what you are trying to sell. Get it? You aren't about to convert anyone here.

Loan. 1. You said and I quote, "Your religion murdered women just for being old". There was no mention of witchcraft. I have not yet mastered the art of reading minds. You are certainly a female.

2. I was not addressing you, it was plain even to one without a college education that I was addressing George who is on here as a pastor/chaplain. That's why I mentioned him by name so those with a college education would know. Presumably as a 'pastor/chaplain' I can discuss such matters, or do I need your permission? Perhaps your should move to Russia.

College education or not, your not the sharpest tool in the shed. Has it not occurred to you that my being here is a pointer as to how wide a scope I read. I have studied many religions including yours. I am not a catholic because I have no clue of anything else. I became a Catholic because I was convinced of a truth I didn't find in paganism and the rest. If you choose to stay a pagan what do I care, but if I want to have an opinion then I will do just that, and all the fairy's in the world won't change that. It's just that my opinion is argued better than the nonsense spewed by some here.

Oh, and I don't hide from what men did in the name of the Church centuries ago. It is an arrogant moron of the highest degree who judges what people thought normal centuries ago by what we understand now. I have no doubt that if I lived in the time of Christ I would have fled like the rest of them. I have even less doubt if you lived in those times you would have condoned much of what took place, because that's all you would have understood in that era. Perhaps you could get an adult to help you write the next post.