Gay Rights

I do Chris. However, before this argument was ever considered by me, I came to the determination that we must all have the freedoms to make these personal decisions before we can even seriously consider the above debate.Idividual liberty should be just that.

My primary objective is really the separation of church and state. Such an unholy union (of church and state) is the root of a great deal of civil and religious damage and, at least to my view, is the root of the deprivation of freedoms to which you are subjected to due to laws like DOMA and DADT.

To this day, I cannot stomach the hypocrisy (religious and otherwise) that has invaded and taken over the conservative movement. My basic philosophies have remained unchanged over my adult life, but I have watched the Republican Party and the whole "moral majority" Pat Robertson crowd move so far away from anyhing but lip service to true conservative and Christian principals. They made a Faustian bargain more in the interests of gathering political and economic power to themselves rather than representing true conservatism.

It has always stuck me as "funny" that Republicans seem to champion "less government interference" but they love to insert the government into people's private lives. They are generally against the legalization of marijuana, against same-sex marriage, and the list goes on.

They are only comfortable with us having the freedoms they feel everyone should have. They're very hypocritical and two-faced.

Bullseye!

Indeed mr. reist however, I must correct you on one small but very significant detail.

It isnt the secular goverment thats denying equality and/or civil rights but rather its the fundemental christian influence within the secular goverment thats perpetrating this evil.

If it wasnt for the bible thumpers trying to lord it over those who dont believe as they do then the secular goverment would never have denied equality to any group of americans.

Miss c...

I would rather we keep BOTH types of marriage rather than give up either one.

That way neither the goverment nor the religions have too much power over love based relationships.

Hey Abby please send me a personal message and if you can we can talk on MSN or Skype about this issue. First off I read E.J Dionne arguments and they are well written, however as a student studying sociology you must also understand what the ASA says above that of columnist. 

I will make one point clear here though. If the LGBT community does not wake up or continues to refuse to wake up and realize that this state by state fight is a failing battle in this 60 year old civil rights war then we have already lost.

As for Dionne's cross over it was the conservative value of limited government that originally changed his mind. It was conservative arguments to allow same sex couples to have the word marriage that changed his mind.

As you know the ASA, AMA, and APA have made it very clear that denying even the word marriage has harsh negative consequences towards the perception of gay people by society and by themselves; and my doctors will bring up this sound bite: "if you are giving LGBT all the same rights to marriage then what does denying them the name and social status accomplishother than continuing to allow legal discrimination to take place by telling LGBT people that their relationships are not good enough to be called as what they are, marriages?"

Unless the professor specifies otherwise, keep to the science before you go into public opinion. It will keep your paper stable and conscious as well as getting the message across. Take care Abby and message me if you wish to discuss this further.

Al, In this day We do not resort to trashing other human beings by referring to them in childish pseudonyms. I object to people Irespect and love being called "repugnicans", disgusting! I hope i never stoop to again to using "dumbocrats". In order to respectfully help you in Your ignorance I would like to let you know that not one conservative Iknow that has ever been against full equal rights for all human beings. The problem is that many ignorant people out there assume that if You are tolerant and inclusive, you must be a liberal. From what I've seen the opposite is true. Those SEIU thugs that beat the crap out of a conservative were liberals, and You are welcome to them. 

You think That's disgusting, Charlie Reed? Don't even TRY to fuck with me! If you identify with the current crop of christians, conservatives and racists enough to say that you "love and respect them" as a group, while they militantly unite and agitate against what you see as "the liberal agenda," including same-sex marriage, you prove yourself to be nothing but a Fucking Repugnican yourself, with a capital F&R.

I, for one, do not for a second buy your pathetic fake outrage over anyone using such language as I do against them. Go ahead and attack ME all you want for choosing to express my utter disdain for their and your hatefulness and your deceitfulness. You are all full of shit.

We are on to the Repugnican tactic you are taking - talking out of both sides of your mouth and - what, trying to win back voters for your Religious-right-dominated Repugnican Party?  Sugar coat your bigotry all you want, act outraged at the "liberal thugs" of SEIU, extol the wonderful accomplishments of the Repugnican Party, while trashing big Demo-whatever Liberals like LBJ & JFK. Why stop there? Why don't you throw in some dirty lies about MLK too? You have enough balls to lie about a KKK/Democrat connection. FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!

Go lay down with the hateful Repugnican clones you love so much and stop trying to pull your pathetic bullshit tactics on us who don't. Take your "christian and conservative education" and shove it up your ass. I don't want the likes of you speaking up for my rights - you make it all feel dirty and sick! Am I being disgusting enough for you now? That's just how you make me feel.

Oh and I would like to add that in spite of the disgusting attacks you Repugnicans make on people like me who will not be classified by your narrow-mindedness, because of my overall humanity (not religion or politics) i will remain steadfast in My defense of your rights to marry too, and in defense of your right to serve Our country. No matter how bigotted or pigheaded you are, no matter how much you lie and try to deceive us, you are still citizens of this nation

Perhaps I should type a little slower! Me and every conservative friends I know are completely for gay rights. If you reread what i said, i praised JFK and LBJ for not vetoing the civil rights movement that was spearheaded by republican reps in congress. MLK was the absolute best. How can I make it simpler?

It is easwily researched fact that every person in a KKK sheet was a democrat. Try a little history.

Maybe I should slow down and try a little spelling!

Furthermore, what batch of christian conservatives are you talking about? The ones i hang out with teach that We humans are not supposed to judge Our fellow human beings. I know there are bigots on both sides but to assume all members of a demographic all are the same is prejudging and bigoted. Wake up!

"every person in a KKK sheet was a democrat" first of all patently untrue but spoken as a true neo-conservative who just expects his word to be taken as gospel. I learned about the Klan when I was growing up in the South. They WERE largely about protecting the interests of the Southern Democrats of the 19th Century but why insist on the lie that "every person" was a democrat? Seems like a stupid argument to try to make. Especially if you think that has any relevance to today's situation. Southern Democrats represented such completely different politics from today's Democratic Party by and large as to be the polar opposite of it. Just like today's Republican Party is opposite from its roots when it formed to nominate Abraham Lincoln for President.   

I am also old enough to have been aware of the politics around the Civil Rights movement and studied it both as current events as it was happening and very much as history as I've aged. HOW DARE YOU try to rewrite history by putting forth such lies that Civil Rights Legislation was "spearheaded" by Republicans in Congress? Is this the kind of education you got as a christian and a conservative? You need to get your money back, son. They really screwed you. Again, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed at a time when there were still a few half-way decent conservatives around who did work with the Democrats - Barry Goldwater and Everett Dirksen are two lonely names of Republicans from that time who certainly would have nothing to do with the Repugnican Party of today. 

And you think you can put it on me to name a batch of christian conservatives who aren't bigoted and prejudiced? Sorry - in my experience it is just the nature of the beast. The only differences I detect from one batch of christian conservatives to another is the degree to which they DENY their bigotry and prejudice and the amount of over-inflation by which they puff up their own pathetic egos. 

Al, first of all, you are right that word "all" probably was not appropriate. Most KKK were though. the Republican party was started to end slavery. it was the main force in combat-ting the KKK for a hundred years. A higher percentage of Republicans voted for civil rights and voter rights than Democrats. These are facts. Regards to the present, The Christian instruction I was raised with led me to My current belief in human rights. I believe in small government. Ibelieve government has no role in marriage other than to dutifully recognise a legal contract between two (or more) adults. There are plenty of conservatives like Me, and I have told no lie today and Isee no motive for it. My anger is real, although perhaps a bit over reactive since the Republicans have not been true conservatives for a long time. I do see some light in some young leaders such as Meghan McCain though.

Things are not facts just because you name them that!

Your statements are so overly simplistic and twisted as to be insultingly meaningless. How was the Republican Party "the main force fighting KKK for a hundred years?" As for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, like I said, it was more a matter of Southern vs. Northern Democrats and we know that the post-Civil War Democrat's role as the White Racist Party of the South was taken over by the Republican Party after that vote, and they still own it - didn't matter to the white racist voters what party their dipshit representatives were in, just so they were racist.  

Below is a tally of the 1964 Vote. Where is your Republican Majority?

Civil Rights Act of 1964 

Vote Totals in "Yea-Nay" format:

By party and region

Note: "Southern", as used in this section, refers to members of Congress from the eleven states that made up the Confederate States of America in the American Civil War "Northern" refers to members from the other 39 states, regardless of the geographic location of those states.

The original House version:

Southern Democrats: 7-87   (7%-93%)

Southern Republicans: 0-10   (0%-100%)

Northern Democrats: 145-9   (94%-6%)

Northern Republicans: 138-24   (85%-15%)

The Senate version:

Southern Democrats: 1-20   (5%-95%) (only Senator Ralph Yarborough of Texas voted in favor)

Southern Republicans: 0-1   (0%-100%) (this was Senator John Tower of Texas)

Northern Democrats: 45-1   (98%-2%) (only Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia opposed the measure)

Northern Republicans: 27-5   (84%-16%)

(Senators Barry Goldwater of Arizona, Bourke Hickenlooper of Iowa, Edwin L. Mechem of New Mexico,Milward L. Simpson of Wyoming, and Norris H. Cotton of New Hampshire opposed the measure

Al, well researched. During the civil war and the 100 years after the republicans were behind every legislation that championed equal rights for blacks. Blacks knew this, and voted overwhelmingly republican until the early sixties. I have often heard of the republican party suddenly going rascist after a hundred years, so maybe You can you tell Me how exactly we are suddenly rascist (or gay hating). As i have said, My Republican family raised Us to not be either! Did the Republicans vote for some rascist legislation? I do know that They are dragging their feet on gay rights, and some factions of Christianity and other fundamentalist religions are the reason, that We can fix. I'm goung to work, see You at 5:00 E.S.T.

DENIAL: THE TIE THAT BINDS CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHY WITH CONSERVATIVE US POLITICS

Again, to keep throwing random lies out there and expect them to stand as fact until someone debunks them is such an arrogant christian conservative way of looking at things. If this is how you were educated there is little wonder that you are so fucked up.

The Repugnican Party has always been a party of political opportunists representing the capitalist business owner class and the interests of wealth over the interests of the people who don't have "real" money. Of course, in order to win elections they have always exercised the basest forms of manipulation of public opinion and always convinced masses of ignorant voters to vote against their own self interests, just as they do today. Just as you are trying to do with your revisionist history. It doesn't take much to punch holes in your theories about the past, but why the fuck should we have to bother? The only reason is to keep your lies from taking root.

No, Republicans did not suddenly turn racist. I can just throw out several names that jump to mind as prominent Repgugs from recent years - Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott, George Wallace, Richard Nixon, David Duke, Dick Santorum, Sarah Palin, George Allen (Remember his Macaca remarks?)... Why would anyone think any of these and others who defend and associate with them would be racists? 

And how about Ronald Reagan's racism?

"It was Reagan’s intention to undo the Great Society.  He spoke in code and used dog whistle politics to speak to those who were unhappy with the civil rights and voting rights laws that had been passed. In 1980, Reagan spoke at the Neshoba County fair, which was his the first time he spoke after receiving the Republican nomination.  At that time, Neshoba was infamous for the murders of the three boys above by members of the Ku Klux Klan who were in Mississippi to try to encourage African Americans to vote.  In an Op-Ed opinion in the NY Times, Bob Herbert explained the true significance of Reagan’s actions: see...

http://catherinemacivor.com/2009/04/11/reagans-revolution-stoking-white-racism/ 

The Republican Party has always been racist and is still steeped in it and more cynically than ever. Michael Steele? Are you kidding me?

And they have always denied it as they deny today that they are about anything more than keeping rich people rich by opposing taxes on the rich. They've got nothing else but smoke and mirrors to try to fool people into voting against their own interests. 

They are not "dragging their feet on gay rights." Support of the so-called "Federal Marriage Amendment" to retain discrimination against same-sex couples is part of their current political platform in 2009.   

DENIAL: THE TIE THAT BINDS CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHY WITH CONSERVATIVE US POLITICS

Problem with the link above. Try this one. It's worth looking at.

http://catherinemacivor.com/2009/04/11/reagans-revolution-stoking-white-racism/

OK. Charlie Reed, you are a liar. My apologies to any sheep who may have been swallowing your lies, but you asked for it.

Not that it is right or wrong to be a "gay conservative," I was just wondering if you might be gay yourself just because you single out this one issue - same-sex relationships - to take exception to in the christian conservative political platform. Everything else seems to be OK with you.

This is often something christian conservatives do with the one errant issue that pertains to them. Michael Steele and other Repugnicans of Color take exception to the Party's racist policies which are, these days veiled in coded language but there nonetheless. For his willingness to push the party platform, Steele gets the attention he craves pretending to be the "leader" of the anti-Obama Party even as he publicly kow tows to Rush Limbaugh, the true party leader.  

Repugnicans only "stand with the discriminated" if they can get something out of it - particularly votes.

And, Charleen, I have to say, it's really getting pathetic to hear so much about the corrupting influence on your thinking of your family and those friends you hang out with. It is so unimpressive to hear how you suck up to them and fail to question the crap you are fed while growing up. How old are you? Isn't it time you grew up and started thinking for yourself? I don't care if you can name a hundred different people who you say think like you, hold the same opinions, and back up your ignorance. Try some real independent research. Seek knowledge on your own, why not? You may learn some things those folks don't know. Is that a frightening thing for you?

Al, Who said I am only involved with one issue? I have visited quite a few of them, but it has been a while. I have been very busy. I have 8 grandcildren.

Too often we get too caught up in being right or in ideologies and just get in the way of getting anything done.

You hit the nail on the head when you wrote:

"None of us...Can afford to be acting like little children in a sand box fighting amongst ourselves when we have a common enemy"

When we do that then we give ourselves over to the divide and conquer tactics of self serving politicians and so called religious leaders.

I can not agree more with you William, My decision to try to follow the teachings of Jesus are not from any particular Church. My beliefs come from My own reading, I do not even go to church, and I have read other things such as the Koran and I discuss wican beliefs with a good friend. I believe People Who use Christianity to persecute have not read His teachings. They have just sat in church and been brainwashed. I'm not saying assembling in Church is wrong, just stay awake! I also believe people Who instantly put people in a certain category because of a religous belief are bigots.

I do not think these people dig far enough into the book, just the Old Testament.  I do not believe they even reach the New Testament and the wisdom of Jesus!

Abosolutely, Mario, Upon introspection I also feel I let My temper get the best of Me with Al. I should have slowed down and considered My responses more carefully. I think I insulted Him, and it was not needed. We are on the same side.

Charlie,

One thing that absolutely sickens me is how much the idea of being Christian and conservative has become so tarnished because of so many hypocrites who claim to be Christian and conservative.

There are a great many charlatans and swindlers who seem to have taken over those labels.

Indeed, Al. some of the leaders in particular represent neither the historical definition nor the modern.

Sorry William! i meant to address that last one to your comment! I've been burning ends too long!

Mr. falafool...

I apreciate that you mean me no disrespect or offense however in view of the more important goal of equality...Whether Im disrespected and/or offended doesnt matter.

What matters is that we all work together because I assure you that the religious reich threat is not only very real but becomming more and more dangerous every day that they remain unchecked.

But you do as you wish...