Whenever any person or organization supports the killing/execution/murder of homosexuals, the question to ask is not "Are you effin' crazy?", but: "Who else do you think should be killed?"  Because if they do give you another answer, then yes, they are crazy, and if they don't--if they say, "No, only homosexuals"--then clearly it's a prejudicial stance that has no basis in rational thought.

Utterly pathetic. I'm not gay, but I'm very much for gay rights - EQUAL rights. It really astonishes me how filled with hate some religious people can be.

This is wrong. So wrong.

There is no excuse for discrimination, Jesus would be ashamed of them. I am a Christian and I  know I am.

It is for this reason (and the Church's involvement in the passage of Prop 8 in California) that I recently left the Catholic Church and have taken myself and my money to the Episcopalians.   Good day to you, Vatican.

We want you, and we love you JR.

I am not writing this to pass judgment on anyone's lifestyle.  In fact, I believe in Mother Theresa's statement, "if you judge people, you have no time to love them."  However, I do want to point out that the New Testament does in fact make statements about homosexuality.  Please see 1 Corinthians chapter 6 and 1 Timothy chapter 1. 
Both clearly state, "men who practice homosexuality" will not inherit the kingdom of God.  I am certain the Vatican bases its decision to oppose the issue due in some part to the New Testament.
That said, I would also like to point out that the above-mentioned chapters have much to say about liars, idolaters, enslavers, the sexually immoral and adulterers.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel pretty safe in saying there are very few, if any of us (yes, including the Pope) who haven't lied in awhile. 

The criminalization of homosexuality is one of the biggest impediments in fighting HIV/AIDS around the world.

?!?!?!?!?!?

W. T. F.  ???  Simply put.

Completely false scare tacticts like this one breed further hate.  If this was scientifically proven - then there could be an argument (I can't even believe I just said that!) but until then...  the very own Vatican is spreading hate as their gospel.  Rot in hell.  And that is said from my huge heart full of love.  ROT!

Grotesque seems to describe the whole thing, although I could think of a few other words to add.
Apparently, it is okay execute a homosexual, but not okay to abort a fetus.  Human life is human life.  Where is the difference?
I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and am appalled at where some of these "new" doctrines are coming from.  Right now, I guess you could call me a "Cafeteria Catholic" as I take issue with a few church rules and regulations.  But, as is mentioned in the article, whatever happened to fighting for social justices and living life by the Golden Rules: Love thy Neighbor and Do Unto Others.  I am not witnessing this in the Vatican leaders at all.  It's a pick and choose type of leadership - these people are okay, but these people are not.  Wow.  Instead of following through on sexual abuse complaints when they were issued, they were swept under the rug and not dealt with.  Now, "drastic" measures have to be taken and the way they choose to deal with "fixing" the problem is to just "outlaw" all homosexuals.  What???  That's insane.  And the church wonders why they are losing parishioners, especially young people, in vast numbers.  Hello!!!  Wake up!!  It is 2008 and the world is changing.  It always has and it always will.  The trick is to change with it, adapt to current times and get your heads out of the past. 

may the one true God, and creator of us all, help us!! Detest the sin, LOVE the sinner!!!  I am no better than anyone, yet i pray daily to be brought into a closer relationship with the creator of the universe-it is only through Him, not through man and his ways that this issue will be resolved!!Turn your eyes upon Him, and wait.

Hey S R -- I'm glad you brought up both of those passages.  My understanding with the Corinthians verse is that doesn't specifically mention homosexuality, and that there's wide debate on what Paul was saying (some say he was referencing "effeminate" behavior, while others indicate that he was referring to people who indulge in very selfish and materialistic activities without giving something back to the common good).  This verse, like you mention, has been WIDELY MANIPULATED by people who want to spin the Bible into an anti-gay text.  But from what I've read (although i'm certainly not a theologian) the word "homosexual" just can't be gleaned from the translation of Paul's text in Corinthians.

Timothy falls into the same category, although there's debate about whether Paul wrote this or whether a student of his wrote it many years down the road.  Again, from what I've heard, it's high suspicious that the Timothy verse references homosexuality in any way that we would define it. 

Nonetheless, thanks for bringing these up!  Also, in the original post, I mentioned that Jesus never mentioned anything regarding same-sex sexual behavior.  From where I stand, that's correct, although if you have any evidence to the contrary I'd love to know.

Thanks!
-Mike

Actually, 1 Corinthians, 6:9 states: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Nothing about homosexuality.

Additionally, 1 Timothy, 1:9- 10 states: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Again, nothing about homosexuality.

Just saying...

Gay people are entitled to civil union, with all the rights of marriage, but marriage is between and man and woman. Stop shoving this issue down our throats. I can except you as being gay but you have to except the fact that not everyone feels the way you do.

You Do realize that Jesus did not write 1 Corinthians chapter 6 and 1 Timothy chapter 1.  Dont you?  The book you read was NOT written cover to cover by Jesus, nor was it edited by Jesus.  I was raised Catholic and left them when the judged me after a divorce, but they didnt look in the mirror at their own sins, or repent for them.  I am more free, and more happy and more open minded with New Thought than I ever could have imagined.  Gays can openly hold hands in service, blacks and whites mix.  We judge NO ONE ever.  Every single one of us are children of God, nothing more, nothing less.  Catholic's can pick on gays because they "wear" their sin for everyone to see, but we all do things God wouldnt approve of, you just cant always see it.  You'd be crazy to think they are somehow less human or less worthy than anyone else.   Bottom line= we are all created equal.

One day, while listening to the radio, I happened upon a well-known woman preacher who was serving up her favorite dish of Leviticus and Homosexuality.

The host of the programme, a bit more knowledgeable than the eminent preacher felt she knew, shared with the radio audience that the woman preacher had broken many parts of the Holiness of Levitical standards....she spoke in Church (1 Cor 14:34); she taught men (1 Tim 2:12), she was wearing a dress made of cotton and polyester ( Deut, 22:11) and those were the ones that the more compassionate host could quote. LOL.

Earlier, I spoke about the difference between what the Bible "says" and what the Bible "reads". This is what I mean..an abomination was not defined in the way you might think. It was not an unpardonable sin against God, it was breaking a cultural taboo.

Nowhere does the Bible actually address the idea of gay or lesbian persons. They speak about homosexual acts. Early writers had no understanding of psychosexual orientational differences. That truth is a relatively recent discovery. Biblical authors were referring to heterosexual persons performing homosexual acts.

Now the sin of Sodom is a tragedy for giving us a name that is not worthy of the reality. Had the angels not struck the crowd blind, Lot's daughters would have been raped instead of the "strangers".

Inhospitality was the sin of Sodom....(Ezechiel 16:49-50, Isaiah 13:19, Jeremiah 49:18 50:40) Jesus Himself refers to the inhospitality of Sodom (Luke 10:10-13). IF THE MEN WERE INDEED HOMOSEXUALS, WHY WOULD LOT OFFER THEM HIS DAUGHTERS INSTEAD? What is threatened here is rape, and rape is condemned by all.

If Sodom was populated by homosexuals, why worry? Sodom was doomed by lack of progeny.

The problem isn't with homosexual priests, it's with pedophile priests. I can't understand why so many people think that every homosexual man will go after young boys, but they don't think that every straight man will go after young girls. The Vatican is like a person on the beach trying to hold back the tsunami with his hands.

As a Roman Catholic, my belief is that religion should be an education on how to be good to each other, and how to treat each other with respect based on the teachings of the bible. That's what I was taught about my religion in school, church, and by my parents.
It should not be a means of dictating how people should live their lives. It's bad enough that the Vatican feels they have a right to tell people when they should have sex, or when they should get married, or how they should treat their bodies. But as far as telling someone who has the natural attraction to the same sex that what they do is wrong, is intolerable.
It's sad to say, but the Vatican are reacting hypocritically-- we're taught that God makes everyone equally, and that is what we should be following, no matter what your religion is.

I hope people understand that not all Catholics think this way. It is only natural to question certain parts of their religion, and this is one of those times that I am certainly questioning mine.

P.S...there are countless of straight people who should not be allowed to get married...but the church will gladly take your $300 as a "matrimonial donation" and overlook this minor detail.

Equal Rights For All.

I just recently became an Atheist after being A Member of The Roman Catholic Church. I personally choose to have my own believes. I voted no on Prop 8 and I support people who are criticized unjustly. The Vatican should instead be focusing on all The Child molesters it has, on the injustice that Women still have within the Catholic Church, How they are going to get all the Private Catholic Schools that were shut down back in business. Please keep in mind that The Vatican or Archdioceses had to shut down the schools because there asses where getting sued by so many people who where sexually harassed. I think That people within the church need to rethink about the Religion they belong too.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, in my faith....said NOTHING about HOMOSEXUALITY.

Jesus cured the "servant of the Roman Centurion" Matthew 8:5-13) where the language is clear that servant meant male lover. The word "pais" for servant meant younger lover of an older man.
The other is Matthew 19:10-12 where he speaks about eunuchs.

NOW, LET US DEAL WITH ROMANS AND TIMOTHY:

Paul was concerned upon the Roman pagan influence on Christians living in Rome. Paul was referring to Roman Pagan Temple Prostitution. The New International Version, rather than the KJV or RSV speaks less about the prejudice of the translators and more about the truth of the matter.

Jesus changed social customs and ideas. Jesus elevated the position of women not found in Jewish circles. The central message of the NEW TESTAMENT is that all people are loved by God so much that His Son came to redeem us.

have you put much though into where the Holy Scriptures came from??  Actually it was written-cover to cover- by Jesus the Christ,  Who is the embodiment of our creator. . God.  read John 1.  Our difficulty is that we, in our limited cranial capacity attempt to understand this God.  There are undoubtedly  hundreds of seeming contradictions and  unbelievable events.  But are we bigger or better than this God?  I think not.  Let us turn to Him, in reverence. . .(fear), and awe.   and He can resolve this. . ."if my people  will humble themselves and pray, I will heal their land. . "paraphrase-please read II Chron. 7:14

I'm not condoning either side - what I was hoping to convey is that we were all born sinners - even the Pope.  We all have our own challenges.
 I was raised in a Christian home by parents who had little tolerance towards many "worldly" issues.  It was because of their own upbringing.  When I grew up and went out on my own, I learned I really knew nothing.  I experienced many different views and ultimately came to the conclusion that I don't want to judge others because I'm only human myself.  What I choose to do is try to love and accept everyone while growing in God's love.  I still hardly know anything, but I hope to learn more. 
Michael, your points are thought provoking.  I'll look into them more deeply.  Thanks.

I am glad that someone mentioned the fact that Jesus did not write the bible. Actually, I don't think Jesus WROTE anything... in fact, he kind of made fun of the "letter of the law" by writing letters in the sand and wiping them away while other yammered on about parcing text. Jesus was all about the "spirit" of God's word: being loving, accepting, etc. I think he knew that, after getting paraphrased by his deciples and translated into an ever-evolving language, words would get warped -- so he tried to emphasize a lifestyle over a list of rules.

Marriage is a civil act....not at all a compulsory religious ordinance. We can discuss your differing theologies on the subject of what concerns same-sex coupling. The reality is that, Melissa, in the United States of America.....it was once illegal for black persons to marry each other, let alone a white person, or vice versa.....they could start marrying each other legally after the end of the Civil War, and they could marry interracially in the USA after NINETEEN SIXTY SEVEN.....1....9.....6.....7.

Do you know why some objected to marriage between a black man marrying a white woman?  GOD, MELISSA, THEY SAID THAT GOD OBJECTED TO IT....THAT GOD WANTED YOU TO MARRY ONLY YOUR OWN RACE. BEFORE, BLACKS HAD NO SOULS, SO THEY COULD BE SOLD AND JUMP THE BROOM FOR TEMP STATUS.

The definition of civil marriage has changed throughout time....and your tunnel vision or prejudice against same sex couples is steeped in this belief, my dear woman.

I love how this argument has turned into the morality of same sex marriage, and tired debates over interpretations of the Bible.  The issue is The Vatican is siding with the many countries around the world who throw homosexuals in jail and/or KILL them just for being homosexual.  Notice the word kill in caps.  Doesn't the Bible mention somewhere that killing is a sin????

Sure, it's a favorite tactic to point out hypocritical stances (that old Internet list of Levitican sins) but look at Jeff Moore's comment.  He just gave himself a pass for hypocritical behavior: in the face of "hundreds of seeming contradictions," he just says that we, in our "limited cranial capacity," can't understand God, so just forget about those nitpicky details and revere and obey him.

You can't win with these people.  They do right because it's God's plan, and when they do wrong, it's still God's plan.

I am so sick of people using Religion to take away Human Rights!!  I am not Gay nor do I believe in God, what i believe in is our constitution and that all PEOPLE are entitled to the same rights.  This country was not founded on the ideals that we must all live our lives the same or that everyone has to agree with your values.  It was actually founded on the opposite ideal, that a  king or one man in charge could not tell us how to live.  I teach my daughter that if you only surrounding youself in life with  people who think, act and believe exactly the same as you, there would be little to learn and life would be so boring.  I encourage her to be friends with people from all different walks of life and religions to expand her mind and to make her a better person.  I would be ashamed to call myself a child of god, and then turn around a do exactly the opposite of what your god has supposedly taught.

I'm a heterosexual male with friends of many different backgrounds and lifestyles. Sadly, I was raised catholic, and my father who was a eucharistic minister would beat me on a regular basis, then turn around on sunday and hand out the body of christ.  Needless to say, I am no longer catholic. I wish the Catholic religion would just focus on their problems (racism, pedophiles, incest) instead of always looking outward to make themselves look good. God's love is blind to all things good. Act as Jesus would, u imbeciles! 

I have NEVER been to this website, until I saw the title of the article. I would just like to point one thing out. You are all debating the true meaning of the passage of Corinthians, but the point is clear. Adultery, forinication, and any sexual act done outside of marriage is a SIN. Sex is for marriage for the procreation of children between a man and a woman. Two men cant have a baby together and neither can two women, therefore the church does not recognize such unions since they are a sin. Homosexuality is based on sex, and sexual gratification is the result. There must be some type of psychological issue there because it is not right nor natural.

You are actually correct, Late, God is in control, no matter what we do. . .He is in control!!! read Ephesians 1:11  It is not those people. . .I am one in creation with you. . it is not us vs them!! and there is only one way you can win-complete life submission to Jesus Christ. Sound bigoted?? it is!! get to know the One that inspired the penning these  scriptures -- in His love--that goes beyond any human comprehension!!!

I appreciate everyone's comments on this article.  It has given me a lot to think about.  I thank everyone once again for sharing their knowledge, wisdom and experience. 

Wasn't the world flat when the bible was written?  Some things change (like the world) while other remain the same (like the church). 

Clinging to their old beliefs is what will eventually lead to the downfall of the church...new members are hard to come by because the church is still preaching 2,000 year old scriptures, many of which make no sense today.

The solution to the gay marriage debate is simple:  Let governments grant civil unions ONLY and let the churches take care of the marriages.  I am tired of hearing people go on and on about the "sanctity of marriage" and what it means, etc. when gay couplees are just asking for same rights as heterosexual couples.   The definition of marriage is up you whatever values one goes by, so we could argue til hell freezes over and never reach a consensus.  Let's first vote to get rid of marriage!

What happened to "Thou shall not kill"

I was raised Roman Catholic and all though I am no longer practicing that religion I am disgraced by this. Many of the morals I hold dear to my heart have been taught by this religion. For one the 10 Commandments and most of all "Do onto others what you wished done onto yourself"

Yet another reason I have left this practice. I believe as I was taught... Jesus will not turn away any children of God. Isn't that what we all are?

First...i believe in equal rights for all...it is everyones right under "god" and the constitution.
the book.the "bible" was anyone there when it was written?no one i know was. so is it actual fact of the catholic religion?did anyone see jesus or the apostals write it??
 i think jesus was an actual man on earth...kind,loving,caring ,commasionate,helpful,etc.. but he was just a man..like the guy down the street.
my belief is the bible was written to accomadate someones beliefs,things they thought were good,,to make them feel better,and tweaked through the years.
i think the vatican is a pompous,self rightious,self centered boys club. and yes jesus would be very sad for them and their beliefs and thoughts  about homosexuality....do they no say  we were all born in HIS image....this would include gays and lesbians.

Goddamnit! I wanted to be the first Change.orger linked by Perez Hilton. Fine job, though!

haha

I am a Christian, Mother, Booster Club President, and Vice President of a healthcare corporation that is charged with taking care of millions of americans.  I take care of my family and yours, and I expect the same legal rights as anyone else in this country is afforded.
In the United Staes of America... we are granted the separation of church and state in our very constitution.  This is one of the many things that differentiate us from other countries.  With this separation, no church shoudl have the power to withhold "LEGAL" rights from another person because of religious beliefs.
For all the Melissa's out there - because I know for a fact that it is not just you... please... please... educate yourselves.  Although we want religions to see past their blind spots, our fight is first and foremost a fight for equal "legal" rights... not religious ones.
In fact - Legal Domestic Partnerships (or whatever you wan tto call them) are NOT granted the same legal rights and protections as legal marriages.  So your assumption is false.  It is because of "blind spots" that people see it as "shoving our reality down your throat." 
PLEASE, PLEASE - Start researching:
Social Security Benefits, State & Federal Tax Breaks on health premiums and expenses, property taxes, employment rights, name changes, beneficiaries, Probate laws, and many many others. 
This country of ours is hurting enough, please stop penalizing OUR families!  We have children, families, sick partners, and we are experiencing layoffs and housing crises just like all of you.

If associating the word "marriage" with only the RELIGIOUS definitions... then I would implore our federal lawmakers to rename "marriage" in the legal sense.  Call it "marshmallows"... I really don't care.  Let the churches use "marriage."  That's fine.  When a man and a woman... or a woman and a woman... or a man and a man... want to unite in the eyes of the LAW... then they apply for "marshmallows".   When any couple is granted "marshmallows" then they receive all the legal rights associated with such. 
The reailty is that religios idealogy is blinding a lot of people to the legal rights that are denied gay couples because they simply have no idea.
Get educated... PLEASE... then come back to me with a response.
Thank you.

One of the many reasons the catholic church pisses me off is that it gives other Christian denominations a bad name. I am Southern Baptist and I guarantee you my church and most of the people in it will be disgusted when they read about this.

Please don't think that all Christians are like this.

I would like to add... for those who many not know this... including the Pope... that there are... Gay Catholic Churches.  Just because one man is blind... does not mean all of his "brand" of sheep are behind him. 

Okay, I'm not Catholic, but I am Christian. This article even made me mad. I mean, my church teaches us to love the person and hate the sin. Imprisoning or killing someone for being homosexual is not loving them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some stupid git trying to preach about world peace and loving everything right down to the mosquito that gave you malaria. I know there will always be conflict in the world; however, what this article talks about? Puts me in mind of genocide. Isn't it enough that we kill each other with our constant state of war and petty crime? Come on, you'd think humanity would have learned from slavery and the Holocaust.

We are all equal. Unless of course someone out there doesn't have the same color blood as the rest of us....

i can feel your pain, alex. :-p


there`s no point searching the bible for reason. bible`s not the koran, sent by god. just the memories of a few people. and apart from the ten commandments - bible has absolutely nothing to do with law. and non of them says: lock gay people up - or worse

but then again church-decisions do not necessarily root in the bible. celibacy, the struggle with women as priests, gay marriage...vatican has a simple problem: it`s hard to confess to be wrong when you`ve once declared you`re unfailable.


and then of course: ratzinger is no obama.
nothing wrong with change, but not in the last years of his life.
he was responsible for the course of church for a long time.
why change now? ship stays on course and people are invited to pray for some generation-change in vatican. amen so far. :-)

and to come back to alex:
surprisingly you can`t find anything about this in the german news. i clicked the link on perezhilton. :-)

As a Roman Catholic, I am disgusted beyond words (well, almost!) by this.  I have never agreed 100% with the strict teachings of the church, but felt comfortable with most, as I was raised in the religion.  I am a staunch supporter of gay rights, but kept quiet in my church.  No more.  This is cruel beyond comprehention.  This is NOT what Jesus would do.

Papal infallibility and its first cousin, the Universal Episcopacy of the Pope (all his bishops are surrogates worldwide) was promulgated by Pope Pius IX in 1870.....yes, 1870 at Vatican Council I.

Two bishops voted " non placet " and did not agree initially.....one was a bishop from a provincial diocese in Italy, and the other was Fitzgerald, the bishop of Little Rock, AR USA.

Josef Ratzinger, Albino Luciani, Giovanni Batista Montini, and Eugenio Pacelli were men who many have alleged were/are gay.

Jaymie - the reason that same-sex marriage and theocratic objections to it synthesize the discussion of LGBT civil rights worldwide...is because marriage creates the basic unit of society.

So, when gentrified activists oppose Dominionist theocratic neo-conservatives in campaigns like Act One or Prop 8, they lose the arguement.

In Canada, for example, the Roman Catholic Church and the Assemblies of God, Focus on the Family and other such organizations were answered by Churches led by the United Church of Canada....the largest Protestant denomination in Canada....who joined the " usual gay affirming suspects" in confronting the Dominionists. It never fails to surprise me that  politics make for " strange bedfellows" for these sects fight each other for converts otherwise.

The Legal Eagles of the Gay and Lesbian Community fought the legal organisations formed by the forces mentioned above.

The Canadian MP's who were gay publicly married their longtime partners when their province gave same-sex marriage ahead of the final federal approval. Contrast this behavior with a MA congressman with longtime partner who did not and said he prefers lesser rights when MA was the only state with marriage.

Us, the great "US" went from the keyboard to the streets and marched for our rights. We marched with our spouses and children. Our parents and siblings, heterosexuals probably, and our friends of the same and opposite orientation, marched with us.

The Supreme Court said yes, the Parliament said yes, and Her Majesty, the Queen assented. It has been five years since ON and three years for the whole country federally

Well said. Bravo!

I am a straight Catholic woman, but it disgusts me that the Vatican has taken this position, enough to make me question my faith.
It's bad enough that gay people are denied their rights, but to put them in jail or execute them is insane!  Gay people are people too, and they deserve equal rights.  It's as simple as that.

Hey S R, and whoever else followed suit:

If you actually did research instead of believing everything you see or hear, the Bible has been changed numerous times over time. There was a passage that used to say one of the disciples kissed another man, until the Church changed it to them shaking hands. If you take the time out and do some research, you'll find alot of interesting information on this. So do not base your support for the Pope on the Bible. They are a business. If everyone in the end supports homosexuality and same-sex marriage, they will follow suit because they wouldnt want to lose parishioners, now would they??

To everyone who has posted here: I totally agree with the remarks of those that have shown disgust regarding "religion". Religion is MAN made...NOT God made. Religion for the most part equals confusion. God is not the author of confusion. Man is.   Religion is erected by men who love to make a name for themselves and make merchandise out of its 'followers'. It is BIG MONEY and the scriptures teach us that there would be a time when many would think that "Godliness is GAIN" and so religion jumps on that bus and brain washes its followers to behave just as their creeds say so, all the while those behind its creation do the very same thing that they themselves speak against. It is NO different than during the days of Jesus our Messiah, THE Living Word made flesh, the Prince of Peace and lover of your soul, Mighty God, Wonderful Counsellor, Everlasting Father...Jesus Christ, (Christ being the greek word for 'Messiah') faced religious persecution like no other and it was the religious hierchy of His day that was determined to kill Him and remove Him out of their midst because He threatened their way of life and their sad little kingdom among men. Jesus called them what they were...a generation of vipers and serpents! They were the offspring of their real "father" the devil, who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. That was THEIR true "father", not the Living God. Jesus let them know that they worshipped God in VAIN due to their traditions and commandments of men that they passed down to their followers and the gen

So please do NOT lump our dear Lord and Saviour of ALL mankind into the evil of religious deception and its 'offspring'. Jesus purpose was never to start some kind of religion, He came to show us the true and Living Father God, full of lovingkindness, mercy, grace and justice, creator of all that is and to fulfill His mission and fulfill all the law, the promises and the prophets who wrote of Him, as the Lamb of God whose shed blood takes away the sin of the world by the sacrifice of Himself, the Lamb without spot and without blemish. The scribes and pharisees and the sadducees and the religious hierchy of Hhis day "thought" they got rid of Him and they were the very ones who should have KNOWN the time of His coming. They knew nothing...They were the blind leading the blind and they all fell in the ditch. The grave could NOT hold Him...the liars could not stop Him for Who can stay the hand of the Lord or stop Him from working all things after the counsel of His OWN will?

didn't Jesus himself run around with 12 men?

Simply put, for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see...and are given the ability to spiritually discern truth from lies, Jesus the Messiah, the anointed beloved Son of God came into the world to save sinners...this is a trustworthy statement, worthy of all acceptance. Nowhere is it ever said He came to start a religion! He came to set the captives of sin, religion and slavery FREE and give sight (spiritual and physical) to the blind, raise the dead both physically and spiritually, heal those with deaf ears so they could "hear" Him both physically and spiritually. He is Lord of ALL flesh and His love surpasses knowledge. Religion HATES that fact but it uses Him just as it uses the "flock" and then proceeds to fleece them and make it seem "ok". The love of God is not far from each of you, and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, not to play 'religious games' with Him but to KNOW Him and the fellowship of His sufferings and the glory of His kingdom that is NOT of this world. It is ALL about Love and the source of real genuine love that causes me personally to drop to my knees and proclaim Him Lord of ALL including my simple life that He chose. God uses the simple and foolish things of this world to confound those who think they are "wise". There is not enough time or pages of a book that can do justice to how truly awesome the one true and living God is, but you will not learn that through religion because religion is having a form of 'godliness' but it denies the power of God. Scripture says that true and pure religion is visiting and caring for widows and orphans (the fatherless), and it has nothing to do with all the pomp and ceremony and outward appearance of what is called 'religion' today inclusing Rome or any other so called "church". His body is made up of those who are "called out ones" that not only hear but DO all that He commanded...which was love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself...it is only through His grace that one can do this without going nuts. His burden is light and His love is pure and that same love can dwell within YOU today!  

I don't blame anyone for their disgust with 'religion'. It can be hideous but the outward appearance "looks" nice but inwardly the system is full of ravening wolves and a spirit of hatred. I pray you will be drawn to the One that is altogether lovely, our Messiah and Lord Jesus. All the rest of these 'causes' and issues will resolve themselves once the love of God consumes your life and we offer ourselves to His love and care, His Spirit will guide us into ALL truth and set us free from that which is a lie. He will set at liberty those who are bruised and beaten down by this world and by religion and those who harbor hatred in their hearts. He will deliver you from whatever has you bound and will never condemn you but will empower you to go and live and stop practicing sin. When you fall, He will stand you up and make you victorious and conform you into His image and NOT the image of religion. He is worthy of our trust and love. He will never despise a contrite spirit and broken and contrite heart...He will take you just as you are. We ALL have sinned and fallen short of His glory....but through Christ...one can have confidence and boldness to enter into His rest and love. Rest from our own WORKS (religion) attempting to "be acceptable" to Him, as we rely on His finished work. Consider taking up your cross and following the Master, in Whom there is NO darkness or deception. His love NEVER fails!

Funny how they can go to extreme measures to cover up & protect pedophiles within the church, but yet they can't let two adults share a relationship with each other.  I was raised Roman Catholic, and am proud to have left the church.  People need to take a stand against their hypocrisy - losing members and therefor MONEY (which is really what the church is all about) is the only way to CHANGE.

In the years that I served as a rector or chaplain, (O-5 retired), one utterance was always: " If you do not see, or feel the love of Christ in this part of the family, RUN DO NOT WALK TO THE NEAREST PLACE THAT YOU CAN FIND IT.

Most of us are spiritual pilgrims....especially Boomers and our progeny, Gen X and Y. I was raised a Republican Congregationalist in MA, and became a Democratic Episcopalian.
A pilgrimage is a journey of faith not fact !!!  Yes, I know +Gene Robinson in NH - what a wonderful and yet painful witness.

The Roman Church had an "open window" when Angelo Roncalli was pope. (Ioannes PP XXIII). He opened the door to both the Orthodox and Reformation Christians....and to those valid Catholic bodies outside Rome caused by schisms in 1870 and 1945.

Giovanni Batista Montini (Paulus PPVI) was a weak successor who triangulated between Roncalli's liberals and bishops chosen from the poor and underclass and not from patrician families. For example, the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches had asked for uniformity on contraception, but Montini bent to the archconservatives. Albino Luciano (IoannesPauli PPI) lasted one month and died under still suspicious circumstances.

Karol Wytola (IoannesPauli PPII) was the penultimate archconservative who wanted to essentially return to the days of Eugenio Pacelli (Pius PPXII). The greatest damage he did was to appoint his number two - a German cardinal who had been liberal under Roncalli, moderate under Montini, and archconservative under Wytola. He now is BenedictusPPXVI, and this man singlehandedly rekindled the Inquisition....against gays and lesbians with his Halloween letter years ago.

There is no greater hatred than one directed toward yourself.

"You are all debating the true meaning of the passage of Corinthians, but the point is clear. Adultery, forinication, and any sexual act done outside of marriage is a SIN."

EVEN if you come to the conclusion that it is a sin, 1) a good Christian still would not persecute ANYONE, and 2) the STATE still has NO RIGHT to punish religious transgressions (or else what is GOD for? why do you go to confession and have the priest tell you to say 1000 Hail Mary's?).

No Christian should support imprisoning and killing people for their SINS -- what's next? A death sentence for lying? For ENVY? What about the executioner? Thou shalt not kill, people. We'd have to start killing executioners, too, and pretty soon there'd be no one left.

No Christian should support a GVT. punishing people in ANY way for their SINS. If you are a Catholic, you believe that JESUS will come again to judge the living and the dead -- anyone who supports the government punishing sins is essentially supporting the idea of mortal men taking on the power of the messiah -- and that sounds like heresy to me... hm, and maybe heresy sounds like grounds for imprisonment and a death sentence, too...

The Roman Catholic Church has a voice - unlike the Orthodox or the Protestant - because of the Vatican City State.

In 1869-70 - The Italian peninsula was unified under one government....and the House of Savoy was given the throne under King Victor Emmanuel I.

Prior to this, the middle of the peninsula, including Rome, was part of the Papal States....THE MOST OPPRESSIVE NATION STATE AND THEOCRACY IN THE WORLD AT THAT TIME. THE PRISONS OF THE PAPAL STATES WERE MEDIEVAL.

Simultaneously, Pope Pius IX convened Vatican Council I in 1869.
The "Prisoner of the Vatican Palace" had himself declared "INFALLIBLE EX CATHEDRA FIDEI"  AND UNIVERSAL BISHOP OF THE WORLD. This contravened canon law and said that all bishops were surrogates or stand-ins for the Bishop of Rome." This Council ended in 1870, when the Papal States ceased to exist.

In 1929, the fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini and King Victor Emmanuel II literally carved a "nation state" a few square miles in the middle of Rome surrounding Saint Peter's Basilica and the Vatican Palace. Pope Pius XI signed it, with Cardinal Pacelli, the secretary of state, who succeeded as Pope Pius XII.

All the other major Church leaders do NOT have a voice in the United Nations. Neither should they. The Patriarchs of Orthodoxy are citizens of Turkey, or Syria, or Egypt, or Russia, etc....and the Archbishop of Canterbury is a British subject. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Until the Clinton Administration, the United States did NOT recognize the Vatican City State diplomatically....although FDR had a Special Envoy.....a semi-diplomatic post. Since Clinton, a Southern Baptist graduate of Jesuit Georgetown University, gave them full ambassadorial exchange....theirs is called Nuncio.

The new Papenfuhrer is an expert on Prada High Fashion and on Right Wing religion. As a (West) German, and then a unified German, Josef Ratzinger was closely associated with the extreme Right Wing parties....and ditto, in Italian political circles.

Wow.....I mean.....Wow. There's nothing like religion to get a conversation started, eh? There were so many different comments made about the Vatican's position, the Catholic Church, Jesus, whether or not homosexuality is a crime, or "abomination" and some were thought provoking, while others made me grind my teeth. Ignorance, my friends, is the greatest sin of all and followed closely behind that is a closed mind. No one knows God. No one knows His plans. No one knows what He really thinks about what this world has become. Oh, sure some may claim to Know God and some will say that all you need to do is pray to know God, but be serious people, none of us know. I myself am a Roman Catholic, born and raised and for the most part, I have no problems with my religion, well maybe except for the fact that a lot of the teachings go against human nature, but that's besides the point. I'm comfortable in my religion because I know one thing for certain......human kind is fallible. We're going to make mistakes, we're going to sin, and then sin again, and even men in high places are fallible. People think that the pope is supposed to be something like Jesus reincarnated, but guess what people, he's human and open to all the same mistakes, temptations and sins as we are. Even the bible is not infallible, it was written by men, approved by men. Does anybody know that amounts of writings and scriptures that are in the Vatican vaults and hidden from our eyes because "men" have deemed them heresy? 
Listen, sex is sex. It's good if done right, I don't care if you're gay, straight, bi or trans. God created sex so therefore sex is good. You think God punishes a married couple for having sex even though the wife is barren or the husband sterile, and they know they will not conceive a baby? Doesn't seem like the "loving Father" I always here about, and I highly doubt he's going to punish two people in love, or hell, even two people in like for having sex. We could go on and on all day here people so let's just wrap this up......God is all loving and all knowing. Jesus is his obedient Son and was sent to show us a new way, whether we follow it or not is up to you. The pope is a man not a god, he's going to screw up but hopefully he changes his mind about this. The bible was written my man and man ALWAYS has an agenda, so question what doesn't seem right to you. If it's good and true, you will find the answer you're looking for.

P.S.  According to the Old Testament, I can sell my daughter for a couple of goats. Does anyone know what the price would work out to now? I could use a vacation.

To those who defend the cause of alienating and condemning others by biblical scripture:

I Love you.

You do not, however, fully Love yourselves. Not for anyone else but for yourselves, answer this question: When you are alone, in the stillness of night, do you really have total peace of mind and heart? Is there not a secret lump in your solar plexus or chest that you ignore on a daily basis?

When your whole world revolves around a thing such as a book, or blindly defending a lifestyle by whatever means necessary, you are in a prison of your own making. This prison is called fear and it keeps an ever tighter grip on those who allow it, pushing away anything that might crack the illusion. It's time to wake up...
 
So often do I hear false notions of separation between people and God; The notion that we are 'down here' and He is 'up there' or 'we're not perfect, we are all sinners. We all screw up'.

In actuallity, we are all a piece of the Divine. When we truly open our hearts, we cannot help but know the Way: Love, nothing more or less. Jesus and other masters have all taught this. The changablilty of human thought or society does not reflect this truth. Only this one thing is constant. This one thought(Love) of the creator to know itself produced this platform called life. And from it, we have the capacity to remember who we are. It's understandable that someone could put others down when they have forgotten their own true essence. Love never hurts or causes hurt to others. Remember this...

To those who call themselves Catholic, and find themselves questioning their faiths in light of these events:

I Love you.

And remember: the true definition of faith is knowing that when we take action in love, rsponsibility and compassion, that we are supported. Do not doubt yourselves or the Source of all that is, but rather hold compassion for those who do bidding in his name, with closed hearts.

To all those angered by the Church's actions, and feel an injustice is being committed:

I Love you.

Trust that the time will come. Realize that the natural flow of all things waxes and wains. For just as now the balance is extreme in one way, it could shift the other way if we are careless. Let us not seek to condemn those who condemn. Rather, show them a better way. When we meet others in our daily lives who are so disconnected from Self-love, show them more and more, that their hearts cannot help but overflow with the reflection of your love. The effect will ripple. There is great power in this.

Namaste,

Lux

Jesus Christ - whom I believe was the Son of Man...and Second Person of a Divine and Holy Trinity....one of the mysteries of our faith, was fully Human and fully Divine. Christians from the seventh century have divided over this very belief.

Jesus wept. This was important for me to know. Jesus sweat blood at the Garden of Gethsemanee, said Luke the Physician. We all weep when we are sad, when we are hurt both physically and emotionally. We weep when those we love or must love their souls if their behaviors are onerous and despicable.

Jesus was angry when children were harmed. The millstone is one heavy structure....and the point was well made. Jesus was angry with the money changers in the temple and took a whip to them.

Christ taught us that crying is okay, and anger can be justified when the transgressions are so egregious as to cause pain and injury, the beatitudes notwithstanding.

I am not only a conjugal partner, I am a parent. There are no sacrifices great or small that I do not accept and perform for my family. There are many different ways to hurt my family....beyond oral threats and curses. LGBT families know and hear them all...we are sad and justifiably angry when they vomit their verbal diarrhea in the name of my precious Lord - believing that they hold the moral high ground.

However, my child is six, and there is no way whatsoever to insulate him from playground taunts or the new terminology.....it's so g....a......y - taught to them by homophobic parents of the secular or theocratic variety. The children are blameless....they have not yet achieved cognitive processes of discernment....even when their parents utter the verbal violence.

Shalom, Salam, Namaste......Hebrew, Arabic or Hindi....the word for peace is pronounced if not performed throughout the world at this special season of the year.

This is classic catholocism at its very worst.
I take solace in the fact that: nearly every social or scientific breakthrough of any global significance that the holy church in its infinite wisdom has opposed, attacked, criminalized, demonized and ruled outright sin has after a time become a reality.
History is on our side.
We shall prevail - and the church shall again, someday, apologize again.
Count on it.

WOW, LEAVE IT TO THE VATICAN  TO STILL BE IN THE DARK AGES WHEN IT COMES TO HOMOSEXUALITY!!!!! 

 speration of church and goverment so let them think that.  dont turn into a fascist like they are that makes you no better them them. how could you

Ist wieder mal unglaublich die Kirche will die Notbremse ziehen;-)
Nach ihrer blutigen Spur in der Geschichte,jetzt auch noch sowas.
Tretet aus der Kirche aus konsequent,zahlt nicht noch für Dummheit ,Ignoranz,Intoleranz lasst sie spüren wie viele wir hier sind.
Die Kirche hat NICHTS mit GOTT zu tun,an den alten Herren kann man auch so glauben.[den ist von der Kirche und was da alles in seinem Namen geschehen soll schon ganz schlecht].
Tretet aus und unterstützt sie nicht mit Hetzkampagne die gegen uns ist.

first off what the vatican is doing is disgusting. i could use a whole thesaurus to write more suitable words to his actions, but that still wouldnt cover it. Human life is all equal. however i would like to address the fact that, yes there is actually mention of homosexuality in the new testament and throughout the old testament. homosexuality is not approved of in the bible, but its homosexuality not homosexuals that isn't right biblically. love the person not the lifestyle. the action that the catholic church is taking is an abomination. Jesus didnt even come to start a new religion, he said "Go back to the ways of your Fathers" which referred to the corruption of the pharisees and to return to the beliefs of before. Jesus preached redemption and forgiveness and especially GRACE. not persecution!

It is all too easy to HATE.

This has proven, time and again, over the course of humanity's history. There will always be an atrocity deserving an outcry, and if we are truly good people, it is up to us to voice our objections.

If you remain silent, how will your voice be heard? Many beleive "I am only one voice, what good will it do?"  If you think about it, if 1 person cries, another will hear, if they cry together, more will hear, so on and so forth in an exponential greatening. Change comes only when it is called for, fought for, and (unfortunately) died for. While i myself am not Christian, many of my friends are, and though the bible says i may go to hell, those friends open thier minds and hearts to me, call me sister in spirit, or daughter in soul, or mother in heart.

Any religion is good, if it helps through the long dark cold nights that come when you are alone. If it gives you peace and hope, it is a good thing.

But when it harms others, it is up to us to help effect CHANGE in the world. A thousand voices are heard more easily than one, and so i say, Let It Be Known, whether it be in the name of Religion, "Moral Decency", Legality, WE DENOUNCE THIS ACT, AND ANY OTHER LIKE IT.

We come from many walks of life, but in the end, our paths cross each other, and at times our paths lead us in the same direction. Let us walk together, hand in hand, arm in arm, with a united voice that Love shall prevail.

May the sun shine bright upon your face, and the wind be ever at your back, travellers in this world.

                            Sincerely,
 
                          Heather
          Green Wytche, Healer, and Human Being

"An' it harm none, do as ye will"

I have yet to understand why people of "high morale standards" and "compassionate religious beliefs" find a union of same-sex couples that show true love and respect for each other wrong, but find an abusive, unloving heterosexual "normal" marriage to still be better, just because it is considered wrong to be gay/lesbian.  How many of these people have children that may be gay/lesbian, but are trapped, trying to act and think "normal" only to satisfy societies opinion of what is right.

Nice debate about bible, Jesus Christ, pope, marriage, homosexuality... But PLEASE!
I just would like to remind you that people are KILLED in countries like Iran or Saudi Arabia just because they are gay. And that the Vatican, by their attitude, support this. Need I say more?

Yes, Phil, Islamic fundamentalists are theocratic nations. Shari'a law says death is the penalty for "homosexual acts". Understand this. The conjugal act for same sex couples is divorced from love, commitment and mutual support.

Fundamentalists in Judaism and Christianity have the Holiness Code, written before the Common era, and filled with abominations (=cultural taboos) that are accepted today. These include the kosher food laws, or many other heterosexual taboos that proscribe death as the penalty.

Moderate Islamic states do not live under their religious law. The Islamic fundamentalists prey on the underclass and those ignorant of the peaceful and tolerance of their faith and those of other faiths.

In the US, we have Dominionist Protestants who would ironically like to impose the kind of theocratic government that the Catholics used to impose in continental Europe. Mainline Protestant churches, like my own, are gay affirming. We oppose intolerance and theocracy regardless of denomination.

Why discuss marriage, and homosexuality and the bible, and the pope? Simple.....marriage creates the basic unit of society. If you do not have marriage, you and your partner are legal strangers. End of story. Why homosexuality discussions?  I would believe these truths to be self-evident....LOL....that all men are created equal, imbued by their Creator, with inalienable rights, such as life, liberty and the pursuit of justice"....they don't.

As mentioned, the Vatican City State was established to give the Roman Catholic Church another theocratic nation state after they lost most of Italian peninsula in 1870 with the Papal States.
The Catholics have the most populous numbers in the world, and are the ONLY religion to own their own country recognized by the United Nations. This has always been frought with angst by the children of the Enlightenment.

Ratzinger had paedophiles, and he blames gays and lesbians.
Ratzinger offended Muslims, and now he supports their killing of us.
The Papenfuhrer speaks the words of love and encourages the acts of hate and death.

This says it all!
http://www.hollyscoop.com/neil-patrick-harris/prop-8-the-musical_18632.aspx

I long ago remember saying to my partner of 32 years that Neil Patrick Harris - then in the role of Dosgie Howser, MD - was gay.

Later, Harris had the difficult challenge of translating from child star to young adult actor, and chose the open closet as the vehicle. His coming out later, I understand, came as the result of meeting the British actor who had done the same thing...and with whom he played in a vehicle with a gay theme with Madonna.

Jim....I know that Mike Jones has a whole thread devoted to the Proposition 8 Musical in the GAY RIGHTS blog here.

Ja, Geschichte sollte die Katholische Kirche lehren seine Verfolgung von Christen aufhören, die mit ihnen nicht übereinstimmen.Mussolini gab ihnen den Staat von Vatikanstadt. Die Vereinten Nationen gaben ihnen Nationsstatus. Sie müssen es verlieren.

I cant beleive in this day and age anyone believes in the God thing. The book is fiction, written by the Vatican to sustain an easy life of wine swigging and incense swinging, an indirect tax based of fear paid by the easliy lead and insecure.

Wake up world, the Catholic Church assisted in the death of millions of jew by their inactivitiy during WWII, they protect their own child molesting priests and yet condemn consenting adult homosexuals to death.

What a world.

FTP.

 

In several responses in this thread, I have tried to differentiate between the many wonderful Roman priests and religious men and women whom I have known and the Vatican curia, and the men they appoint as bishops, archbishops and cardinals.

You see, two schools in Rome, the NAC (North American College) and the Gregorian University is where bishops are vetted while they are seminarians or doctoral candidates later, or both.  There are similar major theological schools for most nations, and for Ritual or former Uniate Churches as well.

Most, if not all, American bishops are NAC and/or Gregorian guys.
There are also some American citizen cardinals to priests who work in the Vatican or in ambassadorial nunciatures worldwide.

There was a liberal pope, Angelo Roncalli, who served as Ioannes PPXXIII from 1958 to 1963. He was a peasant and tried to bring peasant and worker priests into the episcopate. In Latin America, he began choosing working class priests in lieu of the second sons of patrician plutocratic aristocrats. He approached schismatic Catholic bishops and returned them to Rome. He was close to both his own Eastern rite Catholics and the Orthodox.

His successor, Giovanni Batista Montini, who served as Paulus PPVI, was a centrist and triangulator. He sought compromises between liberals and conservatives, and the conservatives saw it as weakness and won the day.

For example, contraception is left to the marriage partners in consultation with their priest in the Eastern Catholic Churches and in Eastern Orthodoxy. The liberals wanted the whole of the Undivided Catholic Church to speak with one voice, and the archconservatives under Cardinals Siri and Ottaviani won the day.

After the month with JPI, we had the Polish insular Karol Wytola, who from 1978 to 2003 saw to it that liberal cardinals, if they survived him, could not vote any longer after age 70. He used his universal episcopacy, promulgated in 1870, to remove liberal bishops or archbishops like the archdiocese in Washington state. He silenced all peritus (STD's) who were liberal like Hans Kung, Charles Curran, and others at Tubingen. He returned part of the Traditionalist movement back into the fold if they accepted the Novus Ordo.

He hired Josef Cardinal Ratzinger, of Munich as the head of the Inquisition....who did his work with Teutonic efficiency. His Halloween letter was a clarion call to scapegoat gays for the paedophilia scandal that has rendered the Church cash poor and mortgaged to the hilt.

I'll say it again.....this Papenfuhrer proves that self-hatred kills.

To the Group:

You canot allign the interests of 'magico-religious' minds with their tools of ignorance, poverty and misery [What the religious scum live off of!] and 'post-modern scientific' minds with their tools of knowledge (gathered data by focus of mental energy), wealth creation and pleasurable happiness.

Fools should be chastised by the scholarly tribe who presumably have mastered writing, reading and counting!

Do we twin brothers need to say anymore!  After all, we do live in Louisiana.

John E.D.P. Malin & James F.D.P. Malin
Informatica Corporation
Cecilia, Louisiana 70521-0460
Information Contact: InformaticaMalin@gmail.com

--

Natural:)~
I supose this person thinks that sex is done in only one position and for the sole purpose of producing Offspring? E d u mu ka tion Illiterate!  Try Biology 101 . How does an Earthworm reproduce? Fish can Change sex! Snakes can reproduce without sex at all ! Dolphins have sex for pleasure! Chimps have sex between all sexs and ages! Hello this is 2009 not the 1700s Read  National Geographic. or perhaps the childs version to start ! MerryChristmass Charlie Brown! Happy New Year Obama LOVE JJ

Jere:

One does not expect intelligent mastery of biology by this 'homosexual' priesthood living in a museum or artistic gallery (such as the Vatican is), does one?

There is a great deal of cash to be made preying on the stupidity and incredulity of the peasants' mind.

These are scroundrels and charletans!

When will humanity be cleansed of their vile mental contagion?


J. & J. Malin

--

Correct:

"scoundrels and charlatans"

The spell button did not activate.

J & J

I think homosexuality should be against the law. This country has always been marriage between a man and a woman, and that should be it. You can't have perversion and have a moral society. But on the other hand, you can't be murdering someone for a minor crime, and have a moral society.

Mr. XXX - After reading your post, I suspect that XXX refers to the level of verbal and spiritual violence purposefully inflicted upon your readers.

On the GAY RIGHTS blogs, we read posts from individuals who want to provide us with no rights, or lesser rights than what secular justice will eventually provide us as it currently exists in other nations, as close by as our neighbor, Canada.

But discourse turns into verbal violence when the person posting goes to the introduction of criminality for psychosexual orientation.

Your knowledge about the fluid definition of marriage suggests that an intractible and permanent marriage law has been in effect in the United States. That is patently false.

You posted under the VATICAN CITY thread. If you have time, google the PAPAL STATES and read about the kind of theocracy you would not to oppress us with. Oppression is when a legal class....gay and lesbian American citizens.....are denied equal rights to the majority classes......based upon theological prejudices of a particular denomination within a faith system.

You are aware that not all Christian denominations agree with the Roman Catholic Church, the Assemblies of God, other fundamentalist groups led by such men as Dobson, et al...and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Well, I will give you what you do not give your readers. Respect.
I will assume that you were unaware that Christianity does not speak with one voice on this issue by a long shot!!

If you just here for a drive-by, you certainly had to expend some energy getting to register here. Rest assured that the rest of us will remember your moniker. At least, it admonishes us to duck.

Oh, what a shock!  Can it really be true that an imperial institution, successor to the Roman Empire, and that only masquerades as a religion is opposed to ending discriminatory practices against gays? 
Actually, there's nothing shocking, surprising, or inconsistent with the Catholic Church's position on the UN proposal. The Cathoic Church has a long, bloody, history of oppressing minorities:  the burning of witchs (heretics), the torture and murder of religious dissenters throughout Europe culminating in the nortorious Spanish Inquistition, the "power" behind the numerous religious wars that pitted minority Protestants against Catholics and left a trail of death, destruction, and poverty across the face of Europe for centuries very much the same as the Crusades left the Middle East awash in the blood of Jews and Muslims and cities from Istanbul to Jerusalem pillaged and destroyed. Countless individuals, groups, and nations have been oppressed, looted, sold into slavery, impoverished and massacred by the Catholic Church in its quest for power, riches, and world domination.  One need only study the role of the Cathoic church in the decimation of the native Indian population of the Americas or at the role of Catholics in the Holocaust or look at the second class position of women in the Catholic church today to know that this is true.  
But one makes a mistake if one attributes this horrendous historical evil only to the Vatican.  No, no, just as the witch burnings of the Middle Ages, or the suppression of women today, or the contemporary persecution of gays thru UN proposals all find their origin in the Vatican, they are implemented and carried out by your local parish priest, by your local diocesan bishop, and by the sweet nun in her Monastery McMansion.  
If you're rightfully outraged by the Vatican's anti-gay position regarding the UN proposal, you should be even more outraged by your bishop's staff of well paid, professional anti-gay lobbyists in every state capital and every city hall across the country intent on denying equality and fairness to gays. With a few rare exceptions (and these are quickly silenced or excommunicated), it is the lobbying and opposition of local priests, nuns, and bishops as well as some lay Catholics and Catholic organizations that denies gays equality, full civil rights, and fairness....and that, my friends, is what is truly "grotesque" and shocking!      

Heather - this ole fella knows that Wiccan witches are not the "green cackling Hollywood variety", especially those who disliked "Dorothy and her friends." LOL

Matter of fact, I happen to love a good number of lesbian Wiccan practicioners with children whom we often break bread with.

We associate ourselves not only with your words, but with the deep feelings that nurtured them.

In 1964, the Vatican City State was given permanent observer status in the UN General Assembly.

The Vatican has used this forum to push their contraceptive, abortion, and LGBT offensives.

Perenially, there are petitions to remove this special observer status from ONE CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION to the exclusion of others because they have a postage stamp piece of real estate in Rome since 1929 that is called a "nation state."

"Gay people are entitled to civil union, with all the rights of marriage, but marriage is between and man and woman."

Nope, you got that wrong. Only the government can create civil unions, and the government can only create civil unions, no matter the sex of the partners. Civil unions are a legal matter, giving certain rights. The government can't sanctify anything.

To be "married," you have to find a religion (or a friend) to conduct a ceremony meaningful to you and then declare you married. That's between you and the universe. A civil union is between you and society, and it should be a universal right.

Right? (I'm a straight woman, but it seems so crashingly obvious to me!)

Ah Suzie, it is Sunday morning, and where oh where to start!!!

In the United States of America - a pluralistic nation - you only need a civil marriage performed by a justice of the peace et al., to be legally married in any of the 50 states, DC, commonwealths and territories of the United States of America.

You ....one or both of you....depending upon your state laws, and go to a place in City or County offices called : MARRIAGE LICENSES.  Please note that it does NOT require a Church service to be legal. It does not require that you believe in God to get married, let alone find a clergyman like myself.

You see, Suzie, Right Wing "Christians" want their beliefs to become the law of the land for everybody. Not all Christians are Right Wingers, Suzie, just people who are fundamentalist or Roman Catholic. What a strange pair, don't you think Suzie? I do.
Politics do indeed "make for strange bedfellows" ROFL.

Civil unions, Suzie, is a new term. A Right Wing term....used by neoliberal and neoconservative alike, to deny civil marriage to same sex couples because they believe that marriage is a religious and not a civil and legal term.

Thank you for your support, straight woman....LOL....

The problem is that Episcopal or Roman Catholic priests, Lutheran pastors  etc.....are given a license to perform civil weddings and blurring the lines between church and state.

Everyone should have the right to civil marriage and then decide to have a religious ceremony or not....

To that end, I terminated my license with MA to perform legal civil marriages. I will "bless" marriages already civilly performed before they get a religious ceremony. I personally refuse to blur the lines, used against me, any longer, although not in MA....but nevertheless, I do not act as a surrogate justice of the peace so that Right Wingers can blur marriage as their own.

Example is this: Roman Catholics do not marry divorced persons.
Huge asterisk......if you are a Roman Catholic and received a divorce decree without a Catholic Annulment, the Catholic Church will not "marry" you. You can go and get legally married by a judge.....so Catholics can refuse their ceremony to anyone now....Holy Hypocrisy, Batman !!!

On Sunday, for a spiritual uplift, please visit www.soulforce.org and view the front page video DON'T TELL ME WHO TO LOVE and bring some tissues.