The Rick Warren Debacle
Published December 18, 2008 @ 08:12AM PT
So how many LGBT folks feel like they were thrown under a bus this morning?
*Raises hand*
Like a good many folks in the blogosphere and at LGBT rights groups nationwide, it's pretty disheartening to see that Pastor Rick Warren has been selected to lead the Invocation at President-Elect Obama's inauguration on January 20. Why is this a slap in the face to the gay community? Well, instead of listening to me, listen to Rick Warren. Here's what he had to say about the LGBT community and the issue of marriage equality this past year:
For 5,000 years, EVERY culture and EVERY religion -- not just Christianity -- has defined marriage as a contract between men and women. There is no reason to change the universal, historical definition of marriage to appease 2% of our population. This is one issue that both Democrats and Republicans can agree on. Both Barack Obama and John McCain have publicly opposed the redefinition of marriage to include so-called 'gay marriage.' Even some gay leaders, like Al Rantel of KABC oppose watering down the definition of marriage...Of course, my longtime opposition is well known. This is not a political issue, it is a moral issue that God has spoken clearly about. There is no doubt where we should stand on this issue...This will be a close contest, maybe even decided by a few thousand votes. I urge you to VOTE YES on Proposition 8 -- to preserve the biblical definition of marriage. Don't forget to vote!
Gay marriage is a moral issue that God has spoken clearly against? That's just a damn lie, Rick Warren. And your 2% figure is a lie, too, unless you put all of your trust into a document issued by the Family Research Report - a theological entity, NOT a scientific one. Aren't evangelicals supposed to be against lying?
Equality California has launched an action alert to urge the Obama inauguration team to disinvite Rick Warren. I just took the action.
But now I'm wondering if I did the right thing. Earlier this morning, I received a set of talking points from the Obama team addressing the controversy over Rick Warren and how this has enraged the LGBT community. Here they are:
- This will be the most open, accessible, and inclusive Inauguration in American history.
- In keeping with the spirit of unity and common purpose this Inauguration will reflect, the President-elect and Vice President-elect have chosen some of the world’s most gifted artists and people with broad appeal to participate in the inaugural ceremonies.
- Pastor Rick Warren has a long history of activism on behalf of the disadvantaged and the downtrodden. He’s devoted his life to performing good works for the poor and leads the evangelical movement in addressing the global HIV/AIDS crisis. In fact, the President-elect recently addressed Rick Warren’s Saddleback Civil Forum on Global Health to salute Warren’s leadership in the struggle against HIV/AIDS and pledge his support to the effort in the years ahead.
- The President-elect disagrees with Pastor Warren on issues that affect the LGBT community. They disagree on other issues as well. But what’s important is that they agree on many issues vital to the pursuit of social justice, including poverty relief and moving toward a sustainable planet; and they share a commitment to renewing America’s promise by expanding opportunity at home and restoring our moral leadership abroad.
- As he’s said again and again, the President-elect is committed to bringing together all sides of the faith discussion in search of common ground. That’s the only way we’ll be able to unite this country with the resolve and common purpose necessary to solve the challenges we face.
- The Inauguration will also involve Reverend Joseph Lowery, who will be delivering the official benediction at the Inauguration. Reverend Lowery is a giant of the civil rights movement who boasts a proudly progressive record on LGBT issues. He has been a leader in the struggle for civil rights for all Americans, gay or straight.
- For the very first time, there will be a group representing the interests of LGBT Americans participating in the Inaugural Parade.
That third talking point is not worth it's weight in paper to me. Just because Rick Warren works on HIV/AIDS doesn't mean that it's OK to tolerate his anti-gay positions. That's actually an insulting talking point.
But do the other ones carry some weight? So here's a question for folks - is it fair to go after Obama for his selection of Rick Warren? Or is this the wrong battle to fight, given that Obama's inaugural ceremony will still have the biggest LGBT representation we've ever known. Seeking guidance from the blogosphere....
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Comments (175)
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Michael is the Communications Director for the Human Rights Program at Harvard Law School, and previously was Communications Director for Pax Christi USA, a progressive Catholic human rights organization.
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I've been waiting all morning for this post. :)
I think it's perfectly fair to be angry and to demand better. There was middle ground here. Consider, for example, three options for this invocation: secular or broadly spiritual, Christian but progressive and open-minded, and right-wing fundamentalist Christian.
Going the Christian but progressive route wouldn't have been extraordinarily leftist. A lot of us could have seen that as an "open" and "accessible" choice, as an effort at unity.
There are a lot of people, LGBT or not, who aren't Christians, who aren't represented by Warren in any way. But those same people could have said "Hey, let's compromise and be realistic here--we'll have a Christian invocation, but let's just make it one with an open-minded, moderate tone." And such a tone isn't possible with Warren--who, I imagine, many progressive, open-minded Christians would say doesn't represent them anymore than he represents the LGBT community, Christian and non-Christian alike.
Argh.
Posted by Stephanie Ernst on 12/18/2008 @ 08:30AM PT
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This is an incredibly hard question. Its right for the LGBT community (allies included) to feel thrown under the bus. This is something that transcends partisanship because its an attack on one group's very being - which is of course an attack on every one.
At the same time, the possibility of bringing young thoughtful evangelicals, many of whom have incredible respect for Rick Warren, some of whom are even more tolerant than Rick Warren, and a significant number of whom are looking for a political space that allows them to resolve the progressivism (particularly on international issues and climate change) with their conservativism, into a political conversation oriented towards a more equitable world is extraordinarily enticing. The question that Obama and all of us will have to continue to face is, what are the non compromise points?
For now, I'm going to be angry when appropriate but try to reserve judgement for the policies themselves.
Posted by Nathaniel Whittemore on 12/18/2008 @ 08:31AM PT
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I'm definitely not thrilled with the prospect of someone like Warren being a part of this inauguration. But to put it very simply, I'm trying to view it as an element of inclusiveness. Won't it be nice to have an administration in power that allows many different types of people, and hence ideas, to be voiced? And to be allowed to disagree with them?
Posted by Margot Zook on 12/18/2008 @ 08:46AM PT
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I'm outraged! I supported Obama financially and through lots of tough conversations trying to convince fellow midwesterners he wasn't too far left. Turns out he's allies with the religious right! This is not inclusion -- he could have chosen someone much more mainstream. Warren and his ilk not only want to deprive us our rights, but foster a climate of violence against us. Don't believe me? Read some midwest papers. Two gay men were just killed in Indiana -- just for being gay. Evangelical churches support the mindset that difference must be eliminated. I don't think that's what Jesus did.
Posted by Scott Collins on 12/18/2008 @ 08:59AM PT
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Why do we need to be 'inclusive' to people who hate us, call us pedophiles, beast lovers, incestuous. This man said he did not 'believe' that HIV/AIDS was a 'real problem'..until TWO YEARS ago!When he started raking in more money from his fleeced flock, less than half of which was spent on AIDS care. There are many, many other people of true Christian faith who could have given this invocation.Nathaniel makes a good point about young evangelicals..even not so young ones like Cizik who are seeing the light because they have been raised to respecet others. The Warrens and Dobsons and holier-than-thou money grabbers could care less about anyone else. Why do we need to be inclusive to hate-mongers? Wasn't that what Chamberlian did? Appease the Nazis, include them? That was WRONG, ....this is WRONG too.
Posted by Lee Dorsey on 12/18/2008 @ 09:02AM PT
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It's all good and well to be inclusive, but are you still being inclusive by giving a man who is so *exclusive* about people's rights such a platform? If Obama wanted to draw in young envangelicals and people of all faiths, there are plenty of religious leaders out there who haven't compared abortion to a "holocaust," who didn't support Prop 8, who haven't compared homosexuality to incest, etc.
Posted by Joshua Levy on 12/18/2008 @ 09:02AM PT
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Josh I totally agree. That second paragraph was my more abstract element, but the rational piece of me says there are a lot of incredibly respected faith leaders. Again, for me its going to come down to real policy, not signals.
Posted by Nathaniel Whittemore on 12/18/2008 @ 09:04AM PT
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I'm angry. I can't help it. I can't help but think: if an openly and outspoken anti-semite, racist or otherwise bigoted preacher had been selected...which of the above appeasement points would be considered acceptable? Is inclusion really a viable excuse? Or the fact that the other preacher isn't a hate-monger?
Then again, I recognize that "uninviting" him at this point would be a political mess. So, in the end, I think Obama owes us one. A big one. Including in his inaugural speech the need for recognizing LGBT rights (and not just in a passing phrase) might be a good start.
Let's face it: the more he talks about us being "equals" the closer to equality we become. Giving Warren this pulpit is a major setback, but Obama has the ability to make up for it by his words and actions.
Posted by Adam Mathias on 12/18/2008 @ 09:20AM PT
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The president-elect likes Rick Warren, feels comfortable with him, and respects his spirituality. The president-elect has every right to choose whom he wishes for the inaugural prayer. I am gay. I support absolute equality under all laws -- including marriage laws. But I am not bothered by Rick Warren saying a prayer. Not at all.
Posted by Rodney Wilson on 12/18/2008 @ 09:47AM PT
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I am a 72 year old white, straight, woman. I am a liberal Democrat, wife, mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother.
I am a former Catholic, now through with religion. I supported Edwards, then Clinton (I AM a woman, after all!) and finally, Obama. I worked for equality for women, all races, anti-war, choice, and all other good and obviously rational causes.
Now that I have established my street creds, let me state
my disappointment in the choice of Warren for this overtly
religious part of the inauguration. When one chooses to
give a voice to evil, especially in a pleasant, attractive guise,
one gives approval to the policies of that evil person.
I have twelve grandchildren, of every hue in the white/black/brown palette. If any of them turn out to be gay,
this man has declared that they are on a level with child molesters, and practitioners of incest! I will not accept this for them or for others. Most molesters are heterosexual, you know.
I gave time, money and moral support to this man, knowing that he was not a Messiah, or miracle worker. I applaud inclusiveness, but not to the extent of clasping the poisonous snake to ones bosom!
Excuse the verbosity, but this ain't what I marched for in the sixties, nor the seventies, etc. If religion must be included in the ceremony (and I guess it must) pick someone who preaches love, not hate. That lipstick must not have been put away since making up the last swine.
Let's see a lot of action, and soon, restoring our Constitution, and civil rights. You owe us, Mr. Obama, and you owe our country.
Posted by Shirley Spellmire on 12/18/2008 @ 09:56AM PT
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I'm 22. A devout follower of Christ, reader of the Bible, and a man who sins and fails daily.
I, along with Rick Warren, believe that homosexuality, in anyway shape or form, is a sin. Just the same as incest, pre-marital sex, molestation, pornography, rape, etc.
That, however, does not make me a hater of gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals, or transvestites. I work on living as Christ would, loving others dispite their sins. That's how I feel about it. Rick Warren is not a hate-monger nor is he a mean guy, he is a lover of people, interested in getting people to know God, understand His word, and get as many of us to heaven as possible.
God is a loving god. Yes, that's true in every sense of the word. God is also a very just God. Also in every sense of the word. There is no varying between the two. He is both, not one or the other. That's what I'm trying to get across, and that's what Rick Warren is trying to get across.
If you don't believe in God, this is pointless to be reading because that is were I'm coming from.
If you believe in God than surely you believe in the Bible and that being the case: I point you to the part in the Bible where God did away with Sodom and Gamorrah. Why did He get rid of those cities?
God is just. And God is very loving.
Serving an AWESOME God,
Nick
Posted by Nick Prickett on 04/01/2009 @ 09:30PM PT
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Nick,
Read your Bible a little more closely. Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed because the people were inhospitable to strangers.
Christ came to fulfill prophecy and the "old law" became just that (all that silliness in Leviticus, for example).
Furthermore, I might suggest you take a college course in Biblical history and/or translations. The original texts have been mistranslated throughout the ages. There was no word for what we think of today as "gay", therefore, when the texts were being translated in the MIDDLE AGES, assumptions were made as to what the original texts were trying to say. Most Biblical scholars now believe that what has been translated as references to homosexuality were probably more closely meant to mean "pederasty" and married men taking young boys as lovers on the side.
Finally, read the Gospels...Pay close attention to the stuff in red (Jesus' words). He gives lots of admonitions, not ONE about homosexuality. If it was such a damnable sin, I'm very confident that our Lord would have had something to say about it.
Posted by David Greer on 04/02/2009 @ 09:22AM PT
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Is this Obama's contribution to ending discrimination? I was considering watching the Inaugaration on Jan 20 to hear people like Aretha Franklin and possibly a poet like Bob Dylan.But now that I'm aware that a rightwing white bigot,Rick Warren, has been chosen by the President-elect to stand on that podium and speak to the people of this torn country,I'LL PASS on it.I thought that after the election,the concept was to once again try to bring the people of the Divided States of America together to as the United States of America.Oh well,same ol' same ol'.Oh ye,I'm heterosexual,I voted for Obama(?),and I believe in TRUE FREEDOM.
Joseph Che D'Amico
Posted by Joseph Che D'Amico on 12/18/2008 @ 09:56AM PT
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If he didn't have people of varying views around him he would be a liar and not the leader we need. If bitter partisanship is what you wanted you should have voted for Hillary. Obama is delivering on what he promised and that is a good thing for our country.
Posted by Joseph Price on 12/18/2008 @ 10:10AM PT
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I'm outraged as well, not only as an ally of the LGBT community, but as a woman. Warren has also compared abortion to the Halocaust, and supports eliminating a woman's right to bodily autonomy. This bigot should not be supported this way.
Posted by TH Mac on 12/18/2008 @ 10:11AM PT
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As an atheist/humanist, I would really rather that government activities did not include religious bs. But I am aware of the reality that there is and always will be these little holes in the wall of selparation. I am resigned to there being an invocation at the Inauguration.
But I am dismayed that it will be done by a Christian right-wing bigot. He may be less of a right-wing bigot than some others, but he is still a right-wing bigot.
This represents the first notch in my heretofore total support of my new President. I would have expected this of Bush.
Posted by Amos Capps on 12/18/2008 @ 10:14AM PT
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I feel bad but then I feel ok about it. I have friends who are against something I believe or value. We share our lives together and discuss a lot of topics. When it comes to the sensitive topics, we leave them alone because we strongly disagree. So, I think it is fine for President-elect Obama to have someone like Warren to speak at the inauguration. I believe Obama is trying to teach us that we can disagree on something but be able to work together on other things.
Posted by Lemene Wakjira on 12/18/2008 @ 10:16AM PT
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This is not just a LGBT issue, although that's an important aspect. Warren compares abortion to the Holocaust and doesn't support it in any circumstances: not rape, not incest, not to save life of the mother. He's also a creationist, which is an anti-science stance. Combined, you've got a package that made so many of us work endlessly to keep Sarah Palin out of the White House. I had been looking forward to a big party and celebration during the inauguration, but I don't feel invited anymore.
Posted by Linda Watson on 12/18/2008 @ 10:54AM PT
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Like many who have posted before me, I too am completely angry. It would be like inviting a former WWII Japanese Imperial Army commander to the dinner table with former Prisoners of War who had been forced on the Bataan Death March and then held captive by their command for three years and expecting each of them to shake his hand and pass the potatoes. While some may do it out of courtesy, others would overturn the table. I think that is what you are seeing here.
The table has been overturned.
(I use this very personal example as a descendant of a former POW of Bataan- whose relative might not have overturned the table, but I don't think would have offered his hand either. He spent his life differentiating those who actually acted against him and US countrymen versus those in the same culture and taught his family that difference- never once allowing any of us to be disrespectful to another human being.)
The selection of Warren is exactly the same scenario- a leader within a religious army that assaulted citizens with words and actions and now he has an international stage.
Posted by Jennifer Kayan on 12/18/2008 @ 10:59AM PT
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I can definitely appreciate the political strength of compromise. But as a gay man, a man of color and immigrant to boot, I can no longer abide folks, who are fully entrenched in they're own white, male, heterosexual and christian privilege, being rewarded with a national platform to continue spewing their corrosive and toxic spittle, in spite of their proven history of uncontested hatred for and about all the communities of which I am a member.
I voted for Obama and fully support him as our next president. However, I will call him out any and every time he decides to compromise on mine and my communities' rights and livelihood.
Posted by Juan Ortiz on 12/18/2008 @ 10:59AM PT
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The harlot, making money in the name of religion, making political ties, in the name of God. Is there really freedom of religion? A person with different sexual preferences still has feedom of religion, whatever that religion may be or may not be. The religious harlots want to save those, through oppression, that do not live, breath, or believe as they do, judging the world, and starting wars, in the name of a god, as they pick our pockets.
Posted by Carrie Klossner on 12/18/2008 @ 11:08AM PT
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Obama would do better to invite someone who isn't upholding the status quo so firmly: (rich?), white, male, straight Christian? Still, what do you expect? The president-elect is centrist.
Warren's argument, though, is so typical that it's pathetic at this point. Why should anyone give a damn about 5000 years of the definition of marriage? Gay individuals are right here, right now. The right to respect under the law has nothing to do with a 5000 year-old definition, which, by the way, was propogated out of the same exact prejudice going on right now (surprise!). Talk about a red herring.
Posted by Luella - on 12/18/2008 @ 11:11AM PT
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i'm so sorry that Obama picked this person. He's been right on for so many other people. I don't think bigotry should be heard. I believe in Obama and change; that doesnt include bigotry etc.
Posted by natalie gladstone on 12/18/2008 @ 11:33AM PT
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Thrown under the bus? Well, if you're gay you were already UNDER the bus.
We, as a group, have screwed up our advocacy with this government for at least 10 years. We've NOT defended ourselves. We haven't stood up for our beliefs.
For example, take HRC. Almost 10 years ago the strong leader who was representing us in DC mysteriously was fired (for advocating gay marriage which embarassed a republican president). Who leads HRC now? ...Well, in a literal sense, no one. In a figurative sense, some woos who is controlled by the conservatives in government and doesn't stand up for gays or any of our issues.
That's just one example. Another: Where's Troy Perry the founder of the MCC church? He mysteriously "retired" at almost the same time the HRC changed "leaders."
I could go on and on. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Long story short: We need to find a couple of new leaders who have the balls to stand up for the rights that WE ALREADY HAVE as citizens of the USA. Forget this "back seat of the bus" attitude. We're not second to anyone.
We certainly need to step up, and say, "No. You've made an unacceptable choice. If you want any more of our support..and money..then get back on track."
We don't accept the fact that you chose a bigot to begin the next 4 years of our government.
Maybe we need to throw THEM under the bus for a change.
Posted by Dwight H on 12/18/2008 @ 11:54AM PT
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Mr. Rick Warren is a well-known popular evangelist. He may be about to inherit the position that Billy Graham, who is now 90 years old and in failing health, held for so many years in American hearts.
It is perfectly normal for Barack to choose Rick Warren to lead the nation in prayer.
BTW, most Christians oppose same-sex marriage.
Posted by George Hill on 12/18/2008 @ 12:03PM PT
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It's regretful that so many of the posts here seem to be hate-filled. How is it that those who oppose hate from the other side so easily slip into hate and vitriol themselves?
Posted by Rodney Wilson on 12/18/2008 @ 12:21PM PT
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That's odd - I thought Rev. Graham's son is the one that inherited his ministry, thus in essence inherited his position... according to this anyway.
http://www.unctv.org/ruthandbillygraham/family/franklin.html
I could think of many others in line before Warren to take the 'place' of Rev. Graham.
BTW, most Americans do not oppose same-sex marriage.
Posted by Jennifer Kayan on 12/18/2008 @ 12:26PM PT
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Wow...just unbelievable.
I campaigned for Obama....
I voted for Obama....
and I jeopardized my relationship
with my conservative family for Obama.
And then he turns around and slaps me in the face.
I'm astonished at the number 'liberals'
that are defending this bigoted Evangelical.
If you were gay....you would understand this deep insult.
Posted by jack carter on 12/18/2008 @ 12:31PM PT
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So far, not so good for the Obama team. Now the LGBT community has joined the cannabis law reform community under that metaphorical bus. Makes me wonder what long-persecuted group he's gonna take a crap on next....
Posted by Greg Kempen on 12/18/2008 @ 01:01PM PT
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I think that Obama could have chosen a less controversial person. I am a Christian. I know that God loves gays and lesbians, and that Jesus' message of inclusiveness and welcome stands overagainst modern day Pharisees. I write in dismay but not surprise; politicians are politicians and it is a mistake to buy too much into the Obama rhetoric. The Warren invitation does not stand alone in Obama's choices; he has proposed people for his administration that stand for old, tired ways of doing things, not change. Just look at the imminent Clintonian drama over Bill's ties to foreign governments and Hillary's nomination for State.
Posted by Grant Barber on 12/18/2008 @ 01:17PM PT
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Obama's mighty fine answer to this question is
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=6489135
Our diversity is part of the magic of this country and we do have to find the common ground and work from there.
Posted by Rodney Wilson on 12/18/2008 @ 01:22PM PT
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In light of the Rick Warren Inaugural Invitation, several couples who are off during this period, joined us last night for a healing Eucharist.
Spiritual violence is real, and it is hurtful. Hardball politics by your opponents is predictable. Betrayal from your supposed political allies does harm to the sole.....and that is a shoe on another foot.
The music we chose was the new single by Ray Bolz - who like Dr. Mel White - once worked for the Christian Right Wing Oppressors - and were by their admission, gays trapped in their cradle faith systems who made a first century cosmology of gay persons into a cause celebre.
On the www.soulforce.org page, you will see a click for the Ray Bolz video. If your soul hurts today, leave your shoes on. Listen to the lyrics....and know that this is sung and written by a man who went through torment to find peace and truth.
God bless, +Raymond
Posted by A B on 12/18/2008 @ 01:22PM PT
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As a 67-year-old minister of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) I am very up-set. Our Northern CA-Nevada Region is the only place where Disciples LGBT can go to seek ordination. I was pastoring a church in Santa Cruz when this came before our Annual Meeting. I learned about the pain my LGBT brothers and sisters are going through throughout our nation, regardless of denomination. The U.C.C. continues to grapple with this issue. As an Obama supporter, I grow increasingly discouraged at the cabinet appointments. I grieve over the injustices of toture and Extraordinay Rendition. The VP goes on ABC and admits to it all proudly. But for the "sake of unity and concensus," Obama will not bring the Bush-Cheney criminal to justice. Now, he wants to "reach out" to the Evangelicals who voted against him. This inaugural seems to be turning toward compromise and appeasement instead of the "change I can believe in."
Being homosexual/bi-sexual/transgender is not choice anymore than being a woman is a choice.
The ignauguration is going to be a very symbolic event. Now history will show that the leader of the Evangelical movement will be first on the program of this event. There is no comp[romise. There is no willness to come together. This is making the wrong statement at a seminal moment in our history. This invitation should not be accepted by Rick Warren. We need to do all we can to ask Warren to do the right thing. NOW!!!
Posted by Robert Hasty on 12/18/2008 @ 01:30PM PT
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It's not the first time that GLBT folks have been slapped in the face after stauchly supporting a candidate. As a white 57 year old 25 year AIDS survivor my body is flattened from being run over by the bus of so called pro GLBT candidates/supporters. This is an unforgivable insult to my whole community. My first political awareness of civil rights came at the age of 12 when my father took me to a concert to see Dr. Nina Simone, after the assassination of Medgar Evers. I listened to her anger and took the lesson to heart. Where is your heart in the selection of Rev. Warren to give your invocation? I think Dr. Simone is rolling over in her grave - and shame on you! I have supported civil rights for all my entire life. I don't know where your mind was when you made this selection but until and unless you change your mind on this one, I will listen to what you have to say with extreme suspicion.
Posted by Keith Kraus on 12/18/2008 @ 01:34PM PT
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What say the blogosphere?
What can we say? I have spent the day with same-sex couples with families on the telephone and in person. Many of these persons spent much time and little but significant treasure in the past campaign, many in battleground states. They are in pain. They are in mourning for a dashed hope and promise. Today, trust died where Barack Hussein Obama II is concerned.
Our foundation was formed to educate same-sex couples and families, and those seeking to join the gay-by boom.
Many of us remember the promise and subsequent betrayal of William Jefferson Clinton. We remember West Wing gay and lesbian staffers quitting in anger and disgust after DOMA and DADT.
The largest LGBT contingent may be decimated as a result of this inaugural slap in the face. Take it in context. The neoliberals and neoconservatives constitute his Cabinet.
Already signals are for the gay and lesbian community to have very little expectation where our civil rights are concerned. We know several non-profit gay organizations who are cancelling their trip to Washington DC for the inaugural, including us. I do not have to hear verbal violence "in person". I can turn the TV mute when he delivers his hypocritical "prayer".
I will continue looking at the Obama administration with studied neglect and zero expectations. If things occur, then fine, and as I have said, do not expect much beyond hate crimes legislation....sexy and easy to pass.
As far as I am concerned, I do not trust him one iota. I do not trust anything in the way of words until I see deeds. I do not believe that he has clean hands in Chicago, and until Fitzgerald tells me so, I do not believe that he is clean. I do not believe a word that comes out of that man's mouth ever again without verification.
Posted by A B on 12/18/2008 @ 01:39PM PT
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It is right to challenge Sen. Obama on his choice of Rev. Warren for this particular event, but I don't think that this is a battle-worthy matter. I agree with several of the other commentators that several of the "talking points" are insulting to their group. I would respond, especially to the 3d bullet, whether the talking points would hold the same weight and validity if Rev. Warren had led a fight against ethnic affirmative action rather than led Prop 8 advocates? The question isn't having a place at the discussion table but a leadership pulpit.
Posted by Frank Staggs on 12/18/2008 @ 01:43PM PT
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Heart broken that I and so many other gay and lesbian people who devoted their time, effort and money to President-Elect Obama's campaign are given such a back of the hand, slapping insult at the inauguration.
Posted by Gary Allmon on 12/18/2008 @ 01:44PM PT
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obama is trying to please everyone , so did clinton in the beginning. he is going to find out that is impossible , he needs to do what he promised to do as well as he can , if he can , you can tell he does want to make a change , but only changes he knows he can really commit to , other wise he will look like another lying politian .
Posted by rosie rodriguez on 12/18/2008 @ 01:48PM PT
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You did the right action, Michael. Warren may have good qualities, but if Obama wanted a balanced inauguration than he would have to also pick someone diametrically opposed in political and moral views to Warren who carries equal weight to take part. Obama did not.
Posted by E-Advocate E on 12/18/2008 @ 02:00PM PT
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Not wanting to be disrespectful to anyone but i can just about guarantee that this day in age with all the special interest groups out there,no matter who was chosen to swear obama in there going to be a backlash for one reason or the other and with this choice the gays feel slighted,well to quote a great democrat of our time
"You can please all of the people some of the time,you can please some of the people all the time,but you can't please all the people all the time".
Posted by brian lalone on 12/18/2008 @ 02:04PM PT
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I am in a weird place of not being for or against Gay Marriage right now. However, as someone who didn't vote Obama in, BUT is very much looking forward to his leadership, I encourage you to recognize that what the Obama team is doing is extending thier hand to the opposition.
Essentially they are saying, "look, we don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean we can't work together." This has been the one thing that Mr. Obama has impressed me with the most. I can understand that you are hurt by this, but please, try to recognize that unless we are ALL actually encouraged to work together, this whole thing isn't going to work.
Posted by S B on 12/18/2008 @ 02:14PM PT
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Yes, it is true one can't be all things to all people, but Prop 8 was a major wedge issue. I wonder if this was pay-back rather than a sloppy choice.
Posted by Frank Staggs on 12/18/2008 @ 02:24PM PT
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The choice of Warren, for me, is not so much about his specific views as about the sick attraction of America to celebrity clergy.
As a political act, Obama is being both shrewd and consistent with what he has said all along: working with those he doesn't agree with and "getting beyond the old politics of division."
As hard as this might be for some to accept (on both extremes), I voted for Obama because of the opportunity of having a true dialogue for a change.
However, I feel this is undermined by the "old politics" of celebrity. There are so many hardworking, effective pastors across this country for whom an invitiation to the Inauguration would have paid tribute to the essence of our faith. Imagine the effect on Obama's agenda is he had asked a pastor from Chicago's southside or Harlem whose daily work is caring for the most marginalized of our society, instead of some religious power-broker? That would have been breaking the mold!
That's change I can believe in!
Posted by Jeremy Basset on 12/18/2008 @ 02:58PM PT
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Well, well, well, Bill Clinton taught Barack how to have a Sister Soulja moment and put the helpless minority in its place.
Posted by A B on 12/18/2008 @ 02:59PM PT
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If you don't want Mr. Warren at our inauguration, then please digg the link and vote for it on change.org.
http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Remove_Rick_Warren_from_the_inauguration
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/remove_rick_warren_from_the_inauguration
Posted by C. Hall on 12/18/2008 @ 03:02PM PT
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I'm pretty upset with the Rick Warren decision.
I don't understand why PE Obama would choose such a divisive person to lead the invocation at his inauguration.
As a person living in Southern CA, about 5 minutes from the Saddleback Church *compound*, all I will say is that the SBC community is blind to their own divisiveness, they are not an inclusive loving group of people.
I'm not sure I can watch Rick Warren talk to ME about our new president. My comment is not inspired by gay rights (which I fully support) I am driven by just plain old "live and let live" which Rick Warren does not support!
I'm sick just thinking about it.
Posted by F DN on 12/18/2008 @ 03:03PM PT
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Ms. Blackenship and other from the heterosexist class with all the rights and privileges accorded citizens of this country.....
I know that it is difficult to believe that you can be a citizen of a country, have all its responsibilities, but none of its privileges that you take for granted......
and then one day, they pass a law that says that you are not something ethnic or racial or orientational, and you are a permanent minority........nah, you can't understand can you?
You have probably read every real story about real lives here....and to you, it is just a philosophical difference of opinion.
To quote comedian Yakov Schmirnoff......" what a country !!!"
Posted by A B on 12/18/2008 @ 03:08PM PT
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when I read the comments, I see that we are doing exactly what we don't like about the Rightwing...untolerant and judgemental...Please remember the president elect put people who have our views in the policy making positions, not rightwing.
Posted by Pathe Diallo on 12/18/2008 @ 03:16PM PT
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i think this is one of those 'just don't get it' moments. if the transition team had really understood the kick in the gut this is to every gay person in the country-- to have someone who fails to recognize them as fully human, and uses religion as a justification for that prejudice deliver the opening 'blessing' to an obama administration-- i hope they wouldn't have made such a decision from pure cynicism.
surely they wouldn't have thought it appropriate to invite such a blessing from someone who used the same justifications for institutionalized racism to have blessed a previous administration in such a way.
Posted by selene depackh on 12/18/2008 @ 03:23PM PT
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I don't really have a problem with Rick voicing his opinion on the matter. He doesn't incite violence, and he's taking the same legal road that anyone should take in order to change things in this country.
However, I don't believe rights like those targetted by Prop 8 should ever be voted on in the first place.
The votes of the many will never grant rights to the few. That's up to our Government to take care of the minority groups so that they aren't bullied around by majority groups.
So a citizen voicing his opinion, no problem.The fact that a referendum on rights was on the ballot, big problem.
Posted by Joe E on 12/18/2008 @ 03:24PM PT
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i found these posts on another site:
SALON"........the decision to get involved with Saddleback was actually not Obama's. The Joint Congressional Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies, run by the House and Senate, put together the program for the swearing-in ceremony. Congress, not Obama, invited Warren"Turns out the incoming president isn't in charge of their own inaguration.
Diane Feinstein chairs the inaugural committee and thus she was the last say on warren's invitecontact Feinstein and register your complaint
Here is Diane Feinstein's senate website. You can send her an email here: http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactUS.EmailMe
Posted by selene depackh on 12/18/2008 @ 03:36PM PT
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The man hasn't even stepped into office yet and people are complaining about him. It's his choice. It goes to show that you can't please everyone. With all of this outcry you would think that gays and lesbians are pulling political strings. It's incredible.
Posted by Sharayah Gant on 12/18/2008 @ 03:37PM PT
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I did not vote for Barack Obama and never would. I think Rick Warren was an excellent choice for the inauguration. That should probably tell you something. BTW, what is with you gays? Can someone not disagree with you at all? Do you only choose to be around people you agree with 100% of the time? Not very tolerant of you all. Give your a guy a break man, your not the only people in the country.
Posted by Stacy Z on 12/18/2008 @ 03:44PM PT
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That is absolutely right, Ms. Gant. Obviously Mr. Obama has not just thrown your class of citizen under the bus yet. Thirty million of us with only a small fraction voting for McCain. We're far " from chopped liver."
Our own figures shows that we donated many millions of dollars to his campaign. One of the wealthiest openly in the US, David Geffen, bundled hundreds of millions of dollars. I read where Mr. Geffen is livid. Bill Clinton's betrayal cost Hillary his support this time, and payback is an itch.
This is an outcry, Ms. Gant, and if you are a neo-liberal with a conservative conscience, then you will be able to gauge it as the year progresses.
Posted by A B on 12/18/2008 @ 03:51PM PT
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OK - Selene - even a neo-liberal like Diane Feinstein would have called Obama for his okay on such an important personage on stage. Feinstein is many things, and never a friend to this community. Barbara Boxer is a true Democrat. Feinstein is not.Yet, I do NOT accept the fact that the Congressional workhorses on the Inaugural Committee work freehand and without the full co-operation of the Obama Transition Team. Obama is not getting a free pass because someone else is doing the direct planning.
Posted by A B on 12/18/2008 @ 03:56PM PT
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Warren, really ? At least Clinton gave it a few months before he stuck the knife in our back.
Obama's definition of separation of church and state defies Change, Hope, and now we know what he spoke to encourage us isn't what he meant.
Watch what they do, not what they say - when will WE learn.
Posted by david jensen on 12/18/2008 @ 04:02PM PT
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Yes, this, the amendments, propositions and adoption restrictions are all battles worth having.
Obama should enjoy the inaugural entertainment provided by Ms Franklin, remember who brought him to the concert and hearken to the lyrics:
…I thought you were my man
But I found out, I'm
just a link in your
chain…
Oh, you got me where you want me
I ain't nothin but your fool…
Every chain, has got a weak link
I might be weak child,
but I'll give you
strength
Oh, one of these mornings
The chain is gonna break
Oh!
(Chain, chain, chain,
chain, chain, chain,
chain)
(Chain, chain, chain)
Oh-oh!
(Chain, chain, chain,
-ain, ain, ain, ain)
Your chain of fools
FADES-
Oooooooooooooooooh.....
I’ve already given you all my money
And all I'm askin' in return, honey,
Is to give me my profits, when you get home.
(Just a, just a, just a, just a)
Yeah, baby (just a, just a, just a, just a),
When you get home (just a little bit).
Yeah (just a little bit).
R-E-S-P-E-C-T,
Find out what it means to me.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T,
Take care, TCB
Posted by M W on 12/18/2008 @ 04:05PM PT
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My message to President-Elect Obama
While I by no means expected to agree with all of your decisions when I voted for you, this one I can’t let slip by. Your choice of selecting Rick Warren to speak at the inauguration is disturbing. In you press interview today you were asked about this and you had some bizarre responses. Your first statement was that you were a strong advocate for gay rights, this is an overstatement. While I do respect that you have spoken out at times, your lack to do so with more vigor and in a much more public way was one reason I was hesitant to vote for you. Your choice to have this man speak nearly excludes you from being able to say that at all especially in light of the fact that on the day of your historic win this man was partially responsible for promoting a back step in civil rights on that very day. Your next step in this press interview was to mention how important it is for us all to come together even when we have different social issues and I couldn’t agree more. Here in lies the problem, you don’t bring people together by having a speaker that seeks to divide and discriminate. Now he is also pro-life and I am pro-choice and I understand people are upset about that. That is an example of people with different social issues coming together and that is fine. I do not consider these two issues to be on the same level at all. I can legitimately understand people who are against abortion, but gay marriage and gay rights is an all together separate issue. I can also accept that people don’t agree with gay marriage and some probably never will. The problem is with that, you don’t have to accept it. It is a right you have and it is a right Rick Warren has and it is a right I deserve and a right that around 18,000 couples in California had taken away from them with this man promoting that right being taken away. The announcement of a hate preacher giving the invocation at your inauguration is definitely a step backwards and certainly not change I can believe in. I think most of America agrees we need to come together at this time no matter what our beliefs are, but please do not lump us into a category of just “some other social issue” especially when that particular issue is available to every other American except for us.
Posted by Michael Ryan McClain on 12/18/2008 @ 04:06PM PT
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The issue with Pastor Warren is not going to go away. I understand why Obama decided to do it but the logic is flawed. I would suggest that he consider a group prayer including various religions. Warren is too one sided. You can argue all day long but the bottom line is he is strictly an evangelical and other beliefs are not in his mind set. Many young couples that are of different religions have been able to settle family religious disputes by bring in representatives of both the bride and grooms church. Obama needs to bring in as many religions into the inauguration prayer as possible not one of a limited mind set.
Posted by Roger Krieger on 12/18/2008 @ 04:13PM PT
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Obama, you talk about inclusiveness? This is so divisive. I am so hurt.
Posted by Joe Raymond on 12/18/2008 @ 04:44PM PT
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I trust O 100%. He is the p[erfect man for guiding this country. I do, however, have concerns. Rick Warren is part of the group that spread the lies about O's Christian Faith yet he is ready to swear in the President using a Bible. He deliberately tried to set up O at his narrow minded church but wants to be part of the coalition of working together. I find this a bit weird that he would stoop to such a hyocritical stand. The "rev" Warren is simply not capable of realizing that gay rights are American rights guaranteed by the Constitution as set forth by our forefathers. It is simply the right and moral thing to do. Too bad so many blind people have lost what America should be. I only hope that O won't fall into the same situation that Clinton did.
Posted by Steve Johnson on 12/18/2008 @ 04:50PM PT
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Oh I understand. Since so many people have put millions of dollars behind his campaign at their own will, they basically want something in return. Makes sense. Obama has some nerve having his own mind and thoughts! The nerve of him! Doesn't he know that now that so many gay and lesbians supported him, that they own his ass!?
Posted by Sharayah Gant on 12/18/2008 @ 05:19PM PT
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How far do progressives have to reach out to the right before a reciprocal gesture is sought? Obama has filled his economic team with disciples of Milton Friedman who embrace predatory capitalism and deregulation and then says we have been too lax in our oversight. Bernanke has the prime to zero so now it's time to start spending our grandchildren's taxes to prop up corporate America and that glorious 2% who will welcome Obama into the club.
Posted by James McMurtry on 12/18/2008 @ 05:21PM PT
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*they own his ass
Posted by Sharayah Gant on 12/18/2008 @ 05:24PM PT
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Why not Jeremiah Wright is the goal is to create inclusiveness.
Posted by James May on 12/18/2008 @ 05:30PM PT
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I believe in reciprocity. What you do to me, I am entitled to do to you. The Neo-cons controlled the podium of public discussion for eight years! Now it is our turn. I want all people to enjoy the beliefs they want for their lives in the privacy of their own homes - and their own bedrooms. But Rick Warren's views DO NOT SPEAK TO RELIGOUS FREEDOM! He is a bigot who wants to impose his ancient tribal beliefs on others. Further he wants to STRIP American citizens of their fundamental constitutional rights (as he has done in supporting Proposition 8 in California.)
He can have the religious beliefs he wants BUT this is an issue of CONSTUTIONAL RIGHTS! He should be kept at arms length and away from the "bully pulpit. I have no argument with Obama or his advisors talking to Warren and his cohorts off stage. But we cannot give ANY level of legitimacy to his anti-American and fundamentally anti-Christian attitudes. Jesus Chris would NOT have invited Rick Warren to the Mound of Olives in Calgary. Why is Obama letting this scum contaminate the public discussion?
Remember the prime directive of Chris: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Barring others from fundamental constitutional rights is not only illegal but it is unchristian. I believe women are the sole arbiters as to what happens to their bodies; something that prolife bigots like Warren reject. We are entitled to free will and to medical discoveries that will, by the grace of God, allow us to avoid suffering, like stem-cell research (which Warren has long opposed).
Tolerance is one thing; stupid acquiescence to bull-headed and bigoted demigods is the height of folly!!
Posted by Alan Bennett on 12/18/2008 @ 05:42PM PT
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Mr. McMurtry - you are absolutely right. Neolib and neocon are the same person - the Corporate shill - with some acceptable tweak for their left or right base, so long as both agree to it.
At this time, trust but verify where the Obama Team is concerned is don't trust and do verify that what you said was absolutely right. The true Left is dead in this country. So is the true Right for that matter.
Posted by A B on 12/18/2008 @ 05:51PM PT
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President Elect Barack Obama has promised that, "unlike his predecessor" (my addendum), he will recognize when he is wrong and admit his mistake. Unfortunately, just like his predecessor, President Elect Obama refuses to see his error, in this case in inviting Rev. Warren to the inauguration. If this is about being inclusive, please remember how Mr. Warren EXCLUDES a very large group of people and opposes the rights that a majority of America supports. It is shameful to invite an invocation by a person that accepts the "then vs. us" approach to society. Frankly, Rev. Jermiah Wright would have been a better choice: at least he does not discriminate against any group in his speeches of hate. Moreover, if we are to be inclusive, where are the representatives of non Christian faiths and a representative for non religious people?
Posted by Alan Bennett on 12/18/2008 @ 06:25PM PT
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Some of the people asking for tolerance are the most intolerant individuals. This is a prime example. Obama has explained what he did and people are still angry with him. He is saying that we have to find common ground. If anyone is being thrown under the bus it is Barack Obama and Rick Warren by the gay community.
Posted by Sharayah Gant on 12/18/2008 @ 06:26PM PT
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So here is what I'm thinking. Obama has his reasons. The man is shrewd. I'm a 67 year old heterosexual and I signed the petition to rescind the invitation to Rick Warren, but if it does not get rescinded, and if we are stuck with this sanctimonious SOB we need to own him, not he own us. In other words, he stepped into our campsite and now he is ours. We disagree with his platform on stem cell research, gay rights and a woman's right to choose, and we let him come to our party and drink our kool-aid, so now he is beholden to us and to our social agenda.
Later, when we bring forward our opinions on these three big polarizing social issues, the President needs to say "Hey Warren, pipe down. I let you preside at my ceremony, now just sit down and be quiet for once." President Obama allowed him to come over to our side for a reason and I hope that is it. It implies a huge favor that the President can call for later. "You owe me a big one, Rick."
It is either time to take away the tax free status of these mega-churches based on their political involvement, or let them know that if they are going to be players, they need to play by the rules. So this may be an ultra-shrewd move that sets them up for a fall. No more religio-politics. Let's hope so.
Posted by Dave Finnigan on 12/18/2008 @ 06:33PM PT
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re: Sharayah Gant posts:
Her name is an anagram for Anita Bryant.
Posted by david jensen on 12/18/2008 @ 06:42PM PT
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Regardless of what people are wanting, he is going to be our president. Furthermore, and in the end, he has the right to his own mind. I hope that he doesn't back down. If he does, I would consider him weak. Why does he have to sway to whatever whim or will that the people want? Yes, Obama is the people's president in a sense, primarily because of his background; he's a very hardworking individual who did not get in because of affirmative action (George Bush anyone?). But that doesn't mean he should allow himself to be pushed around. With all of this disapproval I say that the gay community and liberal left go ahead and appoint someone to his cabinet to make sure he doesn't offend this community in any way shape or form. Heaven forbid.
Posted by Sharayah Gant on 12/18/2008 @ 06:45PM PT
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Sharayah,He has to "sway" to our will because we hired him. We are responsible for this country - not him. And it's extremely important to never "sway" from any person's civil rights.
Posted by david jensen on 12/18/2008 @ 07:05PM PT
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Let me start this out with I am not LBGT, but I am a Obama supporter.
I would ask that you take a look at your anger on this, would you be angry if the politics of this nation hadn't been so nasty over the last few years? I think people have to remember that the decisive politics of the last 8 years, which really started in 1980 with Reagan, needs to end. People who disagree with each other can pray together and sit down across the table.
Pastor Warren, has no decision making power, he is leading a prayer, thats it. An important prayer, I'll grant you, but still just a prayer. We have a ton of work to do, lets try doing it as one country and not right and left. So please lets not make mountains out of mole hills here.
Posted by William Thur on 12/18/2008 @ 07:09PM PT
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re: William Thur
A "Celebrity Hate Preacher" who has sold millions of books and whose purpose in life is to divide people is a "mole hill" ?
Posted by david jensen on 12/18/2008 @ 07:18PM PT
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I thought liberals and democrats were the party of tolerance. What happened???
Posted by Phil Rautine on 12/18/2008 @ 07:27PM PT
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Obama has done some much damage. Now the gay community are labeled whiners by the national media. Not Oberman. He knew this would happen. What a hypocrit
Posted by Karen fallen on 12/18/2008 @ 07:41PM PT
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He's not a hypocrit. He's inviting differing points of views.
Posted by Sharayah Gant on 12/18/2008 @ 07:51PM PT
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This is a terrible mistake on Obama's part. I had hoped that he would leave LGBT politics out of the mix for awhile, and focus on ending the Iraq war and shoring up the economy. However, he has now slapped the entire community of fair-minded people in the face. The only way he can begin to make up for it is by putting some major LGBT legislation front and center in short order. Speaking for myself, something relatively minor and symbolic, like inclusion in federal hate-crime legislation, wouldn't begin to make up for throwing gays under the bus is this callous manner. At this point, I would want to see immediate efforts to repeal DOMA, and at the very least push for federal civil union legislation. Anything short of that would fail to convince me that he is a serious advocate for civil rights.
Posted by Kenny Levine on 12/18/2008 @ 07:54PM PT
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Considering that this is a gay rights forum, I am certainly the odd man out. Ok guys. Good luck with making sure that Obama does everything you say now. I wish you well.
Posted by Sharayah Gant on 12/18/2008 @ 07:57PM PT
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Who could have envisioned when we elected him that he would use an olive branch for the extreme right to slap the face of LGBT community?
Posted by Arthur Carlson on 12/18/2008 @ 08:02PM PT
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Barack is doing what he said he would do. Obama stated his belief that marriage is between a male and female (human, I guess) early on during the campaign; how quick we forget.
One contributing reporter at the Washington Blade received death threats because the reporter questioned conflict with human rights and civil rights.
How can Obama and Warren personally relate, they're not homosexual, I just attribute they're opinions to basic "masculinity confusion"; however what I found insulting is this constant use of religion to determine human rights. As a constitutional lawyer and scholar, Obama is no fool. Remember he cut his political teeth in Chicago!
My perception here is a strategy of "divide and conquer" under the disguise of "keep you friends close and your enemies closer". Now, how will Warren, the purposeful driven man, react to the push back he will receive from his devoted flock if group thinkers.
Also, the more important question. Since the decision has been made and Obama is a Leo (get informed), he will not relent on this matter as already stated, but who will write the speech? Warren? Obama? My personal choice is the American Tax Payer, we all should write the speech to Obama to be read.
Homosexuals must understand, the use of the word "marriage" is sacred to heterosexuals. Let them have the word, find a new one and fight for that law. For many evangelical heterosexuals it is critically important to use the "bible" as cover. Because one can hide their own sins of chosen faith.
Finally, my experience as a black American homosexual man (who voted for Obama, donated money and volunteered time), and worked with political fund raising after college. I will never forget that when pastors and politicians are involved usually "one hand feeds the other". Also, why do my fellow homosexual Americans want to use the word "married, marriage"? It's a religious dogma!
The overall institution of marriage in this country is nothing to brag about! Maybe allowing homosexuals the right to use the word "married", I think evangelical homosexuals are afraid already married heterosexual couples will divorce. The American homosexuals who want to use the word "married" similar to heterosexuals; first find a new replacement word for marriage and second find a good divorce attorney.
Posted by George Hawkins on 12/18/2008 @ 08:16PM PT
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Being straight the Gay issue is not personally important, but divisive Christians are! Why do this and sour your image with free thinking people aross all issues with this choice of a bigot to lead off your, and our, great day? This is an insult to your supporters of all beliefs which will taint your image in so many ways.
This is a sign of your approval of the continued persecution, of gays, pot smokers, and other innocents; not "inclusion"!
Posted by Cliff Carrington on 12/18/2008 @ 09:36PM PT
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As a response to brian lalone...and others...re: "You can please all of the people some of the time,you can please some of the people all the time,but you can't please all the people all the time".NO BUT YOU Do Not have to HARM With purpose and provocation those you say you respect and admire. What a horrific slap in the face to GLBTQA's and ALL who LOVE them.
Earlier today, PFLAG National President John R. Cepek, Vice President Rabbi David Horowitz, and executive director Jody Huckaby sent the following letter to President-Elect Obama regarding his selection of Rev. Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at the January 20 inaugural in Washington, D.C.
Dear President-Elect Obama:
As people of faith, and as friends and family members of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender loved ones, we are disheartened and discouraged by your selection of Rev. Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at your inaugural ceremonies on January 20 in Washington. This historic moment in our nation’s history, and for our nation’s families, deserves the blessing of inclusive faith leaders who believe in, and practice, the universal call to “love thy neighbor as thyself.”
Simply put, there are many welcoming, affirming people of faith who would set a proper tone for this momentous event in our nation’s history, and Americans who cherish our national ideal of “liberty and justice for all” would have benefitted from a wiser choice for this honor than Rev. Warren.
As a proponent for rolling back rights for our families in California, Rev. Warren has sent an unmistakable signal that he believes some Americans are more worthy of civil liberties and legal protections than others. And as an outspoken critic of full marriage equality, Rev. Warren stands on the wrong side of history and, even more importantly, the wrong side of family values. Outdated prejudice, and antiquated philosophies, are out of step with the change in tone we, and our loved ones, want to believe in.
All of us at Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) have been inspired and empowered by your eloquent reminder that LGBT people are part of the fabric of our nation and that, as you so powerfully pointed out in 2004, “we have gay friends in the red states, too.” Rev. Warren, however, has not been a friend to our families, and his selection for this prestigious role in your inaugural ceremony is unwarranted and unfortunate.
Now, more than ever, our families need an ally in Washington who will stand up for us all. Unfortunately, Rev. Warren has stood against equality for all. We know our country, and our families, can do better.
Sincerely,
John R. Cepek PFLAG National President
Rabbi David Horowitz PFLAG National Vice-President
Jody M. Huckaby Executive Director
Posted by Lee Dorsey on 12/18/2008 @ 09:58PM PT
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I am a gay, atheist. My husband is a gay Christian. We've been together without legal protections or the hundreds of rights straight couples take for granted, for over 17 years.
It was not long ago that American law prohibited mixed race couples to wed. Obama's own parents would have been fugitives for marrying, or at the very least, had their union deemed invalid, just like hundreds of couples in California now.
Homophobia must be repudiated and denounced without exception. Yes, this is a tough issue and a lot of people hold this common bigotry deep in their guts for generations, but the same is true of racism. Being "blessed" by this advocate of un-American hate is tantamount to being "blessed" by Adolph Eichmann. It doesn't matter how many points this man scores with AIDS activists if he is working so diligently to dehumanize and disenfranchise millions of people.
Posted by Paul Rosenberg on 12/18/2008 @ 10:05PM PT
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Don't worry people, Rick Warren is gonna get BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOED! on NATIONAL TELEVISION!!!
Posted by John Thompson on 12/18/2008 @ 10:15PM PT
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i already felt like i was thrown under the bus by the obama campaign when obama said he does not support same-sex marriage. he espouses a separate but equal plan for marriage. so, this wasn't very surprising to me. but i'll definitely be there in DC... booing! loudly! at rick warren and obama.
Posted by David Havelick on 12/18/2008 @ 10:37PM PT
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i already felt like i was thrown under the bus by the obama campaign when obama said he does not support same-sex marriage. he espouses a separate but equal plan for marriage. so, this wasn't very surprising to me. but i'll definitely be there in DC... booing! loudly! at rick warren and obama.
Posted by David Havelick on 12/18/2008 @ 10:37PM PT
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I am amazed at the number of people who supposedly supported Obama for President, yet they did not really listen to the things he said. He told us there would be times we won't agree with the things he does. He told us he intended to reach across the aisle to everyone he could. This pick of Rick Warren had absolutely nothing to do with slamming the gay community. It had to do with reaching out to a segment of society who do not support him, but some of them might be persuaded to join us in some of our goals. If you had listened to the things he had to say, you would realize Obama will never turn his back on ANY of us. What makes the gay community think they are so special? Even Rachel Maddow (whom I absolutely love) expressed her anger at the pick. If LGBT had not created such a hullabaloo, I doubt any of the rest of us would have even connected the act of Rick Warren giving a prayer to his gay beliefs. Could it possibly be LGBT are using Obama and Warren to foster support for their own agenda? If so, they are not getting into the spirit of working together at all. Shame on them.........
Posted by Barbara Swaney on 12/18/2008 @ 11:36PM PT
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dear lord, boooo!!! we come here today... booo!!!
Posted by John Thompson on 12/18/2008 @ 11:47PM PT
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There is a difference between having a diverse, noise, and opinionated country and having a country where individuals who explicitly state that marriage between same sex couples is equitable to incest and pedophilia are given a national platform and elevated to a place of honor. I am saddend by this act of passive hatred.
Posted by Curt Lemieux on 12/19/2008 @ 01:07AM PT
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we have to 'include' the enemy/the other/the no to our yes. yes, gays are human beings and have the same human rights, but the religious 'right' will never agree to marriage being the same, being allowable--we're asking them to accept gay life-style as an equivalent to a hetero marriage. personally i do, but i know the 'evangelicals' in my church will NEVER agree to this, just as they will NEVER agree to abortion as an acceptable alternative. so if we really want to compromise, how? that's the question, NOT who's right. right doesn't even matter...so how do we live together, and move beyond this dogma-jam?
Posted by craig clark on 12/19/2008 @ 04:15AM PT
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I too believe in bringing people together. I believe in listening to people with different points of view. I believe in dialogue.
However, I don't believe in giving a platform to hate-mongers and those who are truly not good human beings (yes, I am aware of his charitable work). What's next - is he going to invite David Duke to be a part of the process? Has he lost his mind!?
Let's get the guy booed on January 20. Seriously.
Posted by D V on 12/19/2008 @ 04:50AM PT
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I take PE Obama decision to select R Warren to Lead the invocation as insulting. The inaugaration is a time to celebrate with the people that supported you!!!. As an intelegent individual I feel this difficult to comprehend and it will will make me reconsider further support to you. As a gay man we are trying to fight for our rights, i do understand that mor everybody will be willing to agree or understand us, but his intolerance for any cause he disagrees is not what we need at this time. There is no compromise with his statements and this will devide us more. This is not what we need as a country . Hope his statements at the inauguration will not be something we all might regreat later...
Posted by Juan Gargiulo on 12/19/2008 @ 05:38AM PT
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Obama has picked the poster boy for disagreeable. Warren has championed persecuting Gay and Lesbian citizens and our families in the name of his God while seeking refuge behind religious belief. Obama has redefined equality by rewarding this religious leader who defines homosexuals in the most degrading terms. All in the name of religious privilege. Hardly the change and hope I voted for. Obama's refusal to admit his choice has been offensive to many American's is no different than the last 8 years of Bush- what hubris.
A fierce advocate of equality. Please! Political expediency and platitudes just make it worse. Obama's choice is disrespectful and insulting.
Posted by Mark A on 12/19/2008 @ 05:44AM PT
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The poster is right. This dialog sounds like a right wing perspective. Most are missing the point: Barack is making two points:
1- This point of view exists for many americans
2- It is a signal to those people to "Listen up"
This is a good thing and not a message about Baracks policies beyound including everyone. Get a grip.
Posted by Gary Knopp on 12/19/2008 @ 06:01AM PT
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Bullocks, Mr. Knopp,
We have heard the neo-liberal talking points. Their agents have been disseminated throughout the MSM and the blogosphere. Even Mayor Newsom was dispatched for additional gravitas.
I am an American with a different perspective. Read my profile. I also believe that there is an additional viewpoint I have. I live in Canada for three months every summer. I have tasted full equality and it is intoxicating. My spouse is a Canadian....and an activist who worked the program, listened to centrists, and went into the streets to defeat phony Liberals.
President Carter was a man with moral courage. It transcends political gamesmanship and triangulation like they play in Chicago and in DC of the future, it seems.
The Lesbian and Gay Band Association should disinvite themselves to march in the LGBT parade. The Olympics of 1980 were absent us on moral grounds. You cannot change a nation if you don't stand up for what you know is evil personified and you do not compromise with evil.
We have cancelled our trip, and many other non-profits like ours are doing the same. If HRC and other organizations attend the festivities, then they deserve the scorn of those of us who know betrayal a la Clinton again. Ground Hog day should not be repeated.
Posted by A B on 12/19/2008 @ 07:13AM PT
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Barbara Swaney - if neo-liberals do not believe that the choice of Rick Warren so soon after Prop Hate and the bestiality and paedophile equal to same sex marriage, was not a slap to us, then I suppose that we gays and lesbians should realize that neo-liberal Democrats are in sympathy with Warren and his beliefs.
Posted by A B on 12/19/2008 @ 07:20AM PT
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Hello George Hawkins....a few thoughts, my gay brother.
1) Trust me. I am a doctoral-level theologian. I know the sacramental aspects of marriage. I know as an American that this word " marriage " is a legal term. You will find it in the city clerk's office when you are permitted to get one.
2) I stopped doing it. I stopped voluntarily from signing marriage licenses for anyone, same or opposite sex couples, because this is where the confusion began, and becomes blurred. You should marry civilly in front of the mayor or judge and then OPTIONALLY GET YOUR SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY AT CHURCH. I tell couples to get married by the judge and then, and then, I will officiate at the sacrament, where theology says I merely preside, since they administer the sacrament to themselves.
3) I would never, personally, believe that you compromise with injustice and evil. The Lovings of Virginia did NOT do that....and as a black man, you can marry white in this country and vice versa ....THANKS TO A WHITE MAN AND A BLACK WOMAN WHO CHANGED THE LAW ON INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE.
Listen, George, go to www.soulforce.org and listen to Ray Bolz' tape. You will never be the same again, I promise you.
Posted by A B on 12/19/2008 @ 07:49AM PT
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Tyrrany of the Majority is alive an well in America today.
Rick Warren led this modern day tyranny in the 2008 election cycle with Proposition Hate. Warren states that he doesnt want to pass laws that appease 2% of Americans. He and his alleged "98%" get to enjoy life more than the other 2% that somehow "dont count". (Of course his majority is drastically overstated, but we know that real data is difficult without proper LGBT census information)
Tyrrany of the Majority is expressed variously by Plato, Aristotle, Madison, Tocqueville, and J. S. Mill. If the majority rules, what is to stop it from expropriating the minority, or from tyrannizing it in other ways by enforcing the majority's religion, language, or culture on the minority? Madison's answer in The Federalist is the best known. He argued that the United States must have a federal structure. Although one majority, left to itself, would try to tyrannize the local minority in one state or city and another majority, left to itself, would do the same in another, in a country as large and diverse as the United States there would not be one national majority which could tyrannize over a national minority. But if there was, the powers which the states retained would be a bulwark against it. The separation of powers among legislature, executive, and judiciary at federal level would be a further protection against majority tyranny.
The constitution gave no effective protection to black Americans until the 1960s, largely because the states' rights which Madison thought it so important to protect were used by the white majorities in the Southern states to oppress the local black minorities. If, during the Civil Rights struggle of the 1960s, we "left it to the states" without federal action, there would be still be legalized segregation, jim crowe laws, polling taxes, jailed abortion doctors, and no interracial marriage allowed in our country. Today, we see this same horrific argument being used against gays in the military, gay adoption, gay marriage, and gay rights in general. The states are NOT protecting us.
I do waiver on the notion that the LGBT community (of which I am a member) might be making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I think that the wound of Proposition Hate is too fresh for anyone invlolved to be honored, validated, or given an international platform for his brand of blessing. Obama threw salt in a wound that stings alot. Is this the price of "working across ideological lines"? Is it worth it?
Posted by Chris Taylor on 12/19/2008 @ 07:52AM PT
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Tyrrany of the Majority is alive an well in America today.
Rick Warren led this modern day tyranny in the 2008 election cycle with Proposition Hate. Warren states that he doesnt want to pass laws that appease 2% of Americans. He and his alleged "98%" get to enjoy life more than the other 2% that somehow "dont count". (Of course his majority is drastically overstated, but we know that real data is difficult without proper LGBT census information)
Tyrrany of the Majority is expressed variously by Plato, Aristotle, Madison, Tocqueville, and J. S. Mill. If the majority rules, what is to stop it from expropriating the minority, or from tyrannizing it in other ways by enforcing the majority's religion, language, or culture on the minority? Madison's answer in The Federalist is the best known. He argued that the United States must have a federal structure. Although one majority, left to itself, would try to tyrannize the local minority in one state or city and another majority, left to itself, would do the same in another, in a country as large and diverse as the United States there would not be one national majority which could tyrannize over a national minority. But if there was, the powers which the states retained would be a bulwark against it. The separation of powers among legislature, executive, and judiciary at federal level would be a further protection against majority tyranny.
The constitution gave no effective protection to black Americans until the 1960s, largely because the states' rights which Madison thought it so important to protect were used by the white majorities in the Southern states to oppress the local black minorities. If, during the Civil Rights struggle of the 1960s, we "left it to the states" without federal action, there would be still be legalized segregation, jim crowe laws, polling taxes, jailed abortion doctors, and no interracial marriage allowed in our country. Today, we see this same horrific argument being used against gays in the military, gay adoption, gay marriage, and gay rights in general. The states are NOT protecting us.
I do waiver on the notion that the LGBT community (of which I am a member) might be making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I think that the wound of Proposition Hate is too fresh for anyone invlolved to be honored, validated, or given an international platform for his brand of blessing. Obama threw salt in a wound that stings alot. Is this the price of "working across ideological lines"? Is it worth it?
Posted by Chris Taylor on 12/19/2008 @ 07:52AM PT
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As a gay man who voted for Barack Obama and his message of change, I am writing to express my disappointment in his selection of Rick Warren to say a prayer at the inauguration. I understand that President Elect Obama wants to reach out to all Americans, but by choosing a man who compares homosexuality to bestiality and pedophilia Mr. Obama has made a very divisive choice. The far right Christian extremists have had a stranglehold on the country for the past eight years. I did not vote for more of the same. What Mr. Warren preaches is not only inaccurate; it is, in my opinion, hate speech. As mentioned earlier, I understand the President Elect’s message of inclusion, but this is a signal of exclusion of GLBT people from a celebratory moment in history. As a past contributor to both the Obama campaign and the Democratic National Committee, I will withhold any future contributions until I see some major positive work being done for the GLBT community, not just words, but actions. I will continue to contribute to the Human Rights Campaign and the ACLU, two organizations that actually support inclusiveness.
Posted by Rich Quigley on 12/19/2008 @ 08:08AM PT
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Posted by Sid Hall on 12/19/2008 @ 08:18AM PT
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Why do you just now feel like Obama is throwing the gay community under the bus when he said throughout the entire campaign that he was against gay marriage? Obama does not disagree with Warren on the gay marriage debate - they seem perfectly in sync to me. As Obama said, Warren is on board for the "important" issues of poverty relief etc. (which are, in fact, important). This is what Obama ran and won on - he did not run on or win on support for the gay community. The gay community is blind if they think that Obama is on their side.
Posted by Katelyn Litterer on 12/19/2008 @ 09:08AM PT
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I can't help but wonder if many of the people here realize what "tolerance" and "intolerance" actually are.
Tolerance says, "I don't agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it!"
Intolerance says, "Shut up your moron, people like you should be locked up for saying what you say."
Or as Webster defines them:
Tolerance: "sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b: the act of allowing something"
Intolerance: "unable or unwilling to endure"
Obama is be quite tolerant by having both Warren and people of other perspectives at his inauguration. Ironically, its not only conservative evangelicals who are being intolerant here, but also those who are reacting against Obama's incredibly tolerant decision. Conservative Evangelicals may be intolerant, but those who hate them are just as intolerant.
Posted by Mike Aubrey on 12/19/2008 @ 09:39AM PT
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It's very disturbing that Warren should be selected out of so large a group of appropriate people. I hope Mr. Warren does the right thing and bows out. Our nations politics have been hi-jacked by those employing wedge issues, often with no evident agenda beyond their own empire building. It's crucial that Obama is effective in dealing with the wedge issues presently distracting and largely immobilizing constructive change. I can't see how Warren's appearance at the inauguration helps.
The Warren invite appears less like bridge building, and more like the political gaming responsible for so much of the difficulties now confronting our nation and the world. Obama's campaign was successful in part by out-maneuvering those trafficking in hate and disinformation. This is an isle Obama need not reach across.
Our nation still has the potential of becoming Issiah's "City on the Hill", and not the one from which a noxious river of pollution, hate mongering, and war it has become at the hands narrow corporate interests.
Posted by Ken Odiorne on 12/19/2008 @ 09:45AM PT
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Mr. Obama has created huge cause for concern regarding his competence by this unfortunate choice. On the heels of the huge disappointment and appalling consequences of Prop 8, the choice of Rick Warren is not only offensive, it’s incompetent. I now regret that I supported this candidate over Hillary Clinton (who would NOT have done this!) Stop the embarrassingly lame excuses and switch pastors immediately!
From Under the Bus, Matt in California
Posted by Matt Harwood on 12/19/2008 @ 09:51AM PT
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Mr Plouff just sent the most recent "What you're saying" missive with NO sense of irony. Elevating Warren to THEIR spokes bigot chief has ended the conversation. What Warren has said and continues to spew is at issue Mr Plouff.
Posted by M W on 12/19/2008 @ 11:35AM PT
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This is really very simple: an anti-Semite or KKK member would never even be considered, but since you can still treat LGBTs, women, and atheists like they're less than fully human he's invited.
Posted by Michael Hutchinson on 12/19/2008 @ 12:33PM PT
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As a Quaker, I am all for reaching across the aisle. As a gay citizen of these United States, I am not for participating in my own oppression. We will skip the invocation even though I and my husband are traveling from CA to DC for the Inauguration.
Posted by Stephen McNeil on 12/19/2008 @ 12:34PM PT
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This is one political reality I have increasing difficulty accepting, that being born gay means being used for political gain and then discarded over and over. Because we are a consistent biological percentage of the population, we can never grow our numbers, so we can only try to win others to see the fairness of our cause. That means we must always appeal to the remaining 90% of the population for compassion and support.
If Obama does not deal with this fairly, he reveals himself as a politician first, something I've been wary of since his 2004 convention speech. We've been taken in so many times, we should know by now that we can not invest our leaders with the responsibility to lead us into enlightenment, and that is what American democracy was meant to be. Jefferson asserted over and over that The People are sovereign.
It is our duty to speak freely and express our support AND our outrage when politicians do the wrong thing, even for the right reasons. For we who are born into this permanent minority, so consistently maligned and persecuted for centuries of Western civilization, there can be no let-up of effort. Ever. Our challenge is to always have courage to stand up for the fair treatment every human deserves. We should never silently accept this kind of outrage, or ANY outrage against our quest for equal status. We are part of the family of man and it's long past time we were treated like it.
Posted by Paul Rosenberg on 12/19/2008 @ 01:57PM PT
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I was really torn about all this - but it's starting to become clearer to me. I had a conversation with six other gay friends last night, and we all felt the same way.
When, in our demand for tolerance, did we become so intolerant? I've listened to Warren's rants, and while I don't agree with them, I've got news for you all - they represent the thinking of a good portion of this country.
My father has the exact same views - is he a bad person? Nope. He has so many qualities that I admire - but we disagree on this point. Is Warren a bad person? I doubt it. Does he also have very different views on abortion than Obama - yeap. So, Obama can see past these things, and understand that just because you may differ, doesn't mean you cannot express your voice.
Gay marriage is not the only issue out there - and Warren's beliefs are not the only ones out there, and he most definitely is not the only one who believes as he does.
So, lets let him have his prayer - let Obama build these bridges (yeap - even to those who are against us) and maybe, just maybe, in the LONG TERM we can start to change minds, instead of always insisting that everything must always be our way, and everyone must always be for everything that we represent.
It hasn't gotten us very far has it?
Posted by Sean Baugh on 12/19/2008 @ 02:21PM PT
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On CNN's Situation Room, Blitzer chose part of the interview with Warren, where his gay "friends" asked him why they couldn't have sex with multiple partners.
Yes, the conversation is code. Straight friends ask about having monogamous conjugal relations while gays want multiple sex partners. If they want marriage, then it is no different than bestiality, incest or paedophilia.
If you listened to that segment, with Begala and Sanchez, your view would be sympathetic to that argument.
Posted by A B on 12/19/2008 @ 02:45PM PT
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It now seems that the MSM and the Blogosphere have been spun by the Obama Team.
1) Obama loves gays and lesbians
2) Obama owed Warren a return visit
3) repeat 1
In a few days, it will be " Warren who? Warren what?
Posted by A B on 12/19/2008 @ 03:01PM PT
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We need to stop excusing and enabling people because a wrong-headed notion is part of their "beliefs." We forgive all kinds of stupidity and even criminality and atrocity in the name of "freedom of religion" and "respect for different beliefs." No other sector of our society gets this kind of pass.
I don't care if Rick Warren has cured cancer, fed the world and rescued abused puppies. The notion that gay people choose their state of being and therefore do not deserve equal treatment under the law is flat wrong. If Obama believes this, then HE is flat wrong. I didn't choose to be gay any more than Obama chose to be heterosexual or black, and my partner and I should have identical rights and responsibilities of any other American. Period. We pay the same taxes, we bleed the same blood.
So however nice a man Rick Warren is, and however charismatic a speaker Barack Obama is, if they both believe in their hearts that I chose to be gay and that my partner of 17 years and I do not deserve the same rights as they and their spouses enjoy, they are wrong and they need to be educated. In a democracy, it is up to We The People to do that educating.
That's why we're having this discussion.
Posted by Paul Rosenberg on 12/19/2008 @ 04:43PM PT
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PE Oboma, Asking Rick Warren to give the invocation at the inauguration is a big mistake. There is still time to reverse it and have the humility to admit a mistake. I can understand wanting to talk to those with whom you disagree. But to honor them??? This man equates gays with pedophiles and polygamists because of his "traditions." Slavery and racism were traditions too. I am sure you can find someone who still believes in anti-miscegination laws and invite them to speak so you bring everyone to the table. This is the lowest political pandering to the evangelical right wing you have engaged in so far. Shame on you.
Posted by Howard Dolinsky on 12/19/2008 @ 05:01PM PT
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Obama's invitation to Warren is not a "Hope or Change to Believe In" - at least not for me - especially after having avidly supported him.
The impact is such that now I cannot even listen to Obama. The image of Obama back-slapping and embracing Warren and SMILING at him like the Cheshire Cat is smarmy.
When it comes to true human rights, Obama seems to be becoming "Bush Light." I just can't trust his word anymore. His actions are speaking louder than his words! I wonder about his advisors!
Well, back to reality: Above all, I now realize that Obama is of course just another politician: It seems Obama will do and say anything to gain future voters - even if they denigrate and justify hate in the name of their image of God.
Well, OK. The let Warren and his ilk support Obama's next campaign - not me. I took down my Obama lawn signs today.
The upside is that at least the Constitiution gaurantees free speech: Of course, we can only guess what hate that Warren will "invoke" at the inauguration. Heaven help us if Obama's validation of Warren leads others to justify another Laramie.
No, this is not over the top: Human lives have been and can be at stake - not just words or political positions.
Good Lord, deliver us.
Posted by Denny Kecso on 12/19/2008 @ 07:35PM PT
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Look, Obama just wants to heal America by ensuring that everyone’s views are included. I can’t wait to see who he selects to represent white supremacists!
Posted by Matthew Phillips on 12/19/2008 @ 10:39PM PT
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I've been fuming all week about the stunning insult this is to gays, to gay rights advocates and to all Americans, but there are other issues this choice presents that are just as important. The obvious ones are the insults to women -- Warren strongly opposes women's reproductive rights -- and to Jews, Muslims and other nonchristians -- Warren says they're all going to hell.
But there's more. It is jarring to hear the President-Elect talk about the importance of science when he chooses to showcase an anti-science creationist to introduce his presidency. The presence of Rick Warren says, "Okay, kids, dump those science books -- god made the world in 7 days a few thousand years back; and girls, you came from man's rib."
The President-Elect has to choose -- science or creationism. He cannot have it both ways as he is pretending to do in this week's video address. The big signal of the week was that Obama was leaning toward superstition and that science was a weekend afterthought, tossed in while the packing for Hawaii. As Hillary Clinton once said, shame on you, Barack Obama.
The Constant Weader at www.RealityChex.com
Posted by Marie Burns on 12/20/2008 @ 04:34AM PT
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I am a gay man from the time I attended first grade, I was aware of my human traits. I endured the minefield of childhood, the cruelty of homo-haters and queer bashing. I came out to my parents at the age of 16. I was rejected and thrown out onto the street. I made my way through it all with my dignity intact and a permanently broken heart. I realise that for me and my homosexual brothers and sisters, life is unfair and occasionally brutal. I have had to learn life on my own. In the 80's, when I entered into my 20's, I experienced a plague which wiped out a huge segment of my gay family and I'll never forget how straight people said we deserve it and serves us right. It was us who surged forward to bring the awareness of HIV to the mainstream. In the early 90's, I was set upon by six who punched and kicked me to a pulp whilst yelling fucking faggot and left me crumpled in a city doorway bleeding profusely on a cold January night. My biological family told me that it happened because of the way I dressed(parachute pants and leather jacket). I've been through 8 hateful years of reagan, 4 more of bush, 8 hypocritical years of clinton and the last 8 years of the incomprehensible terror of bush. when I first heard obama emphatically state that he supports marriage between a man and a woman, I quickly realised that he is not my candidate but I voted for him anyway. Now I feel like I've been kicked in the balls. I don't care that much anymore. The whole world is in collapse, human population is growing out of control, wiping out the environment and all species of life. The climate is broken and heating up as we crank more and more carbon into the atmosphere, the oceans are rising the ice caps are melting, china owns the US, the economy has collapsed. The list of calamities is overwhelming and we as americans can think of nothing more critical then letting gays get married? Are we for real? We deserve exactly what's coming!
Posted by Paul Flynn on 12/20/2008 @ 09:44AM PT
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C'mon everbody! Let's ALL go and throw our SHOES!!!(Just think of the platforms our drag kin will be wearin' - remember they were front and center at Stonewall ! )
Posted by david jensen on 12/20/2008 @ 10:10AM PT
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You know David, I am old enough to have gone to the Stonewall before the riot, and in my 20's to boot.....but I am a clergyman who believes in what message that Muslim reporter " sent" with his shoe flying at the president of our country.
The message we send is better than using our shoes as live missiles......but rather, as did Ghandi and MLK, Jr....." bare our soles,,,,,er souls......" to the man who has forgotten that his faith asks him to love his neighbor as himself.....not a lesser or unequal version of himself.
Posted by A B on 12/20/2008 @ 10:26AM PT
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Paul -
There is change.gov and there Obama asks you to tell them your story. I think that you should venture over there ( it is how I found change.org) and tell Mr. Obama what his triangulating politics does for you.
Having said this, I know that you have heavy calluses over that pain of growing up gay and bashed....and reaching adulthood, and again bashed.You know, Paul, there are many causes here at Change.org that I believe in and contribute to. I must, however, be okay with who I am before I can help others beyond my little world.I have been monogamously partnered since 1976, and married in Canada to a Canadian citizen since 2003. We have a 6 year old son.
My spouse's country has evolved. It had the same laws as our country, the USA, until 2003. Then, province by province, the marriage laws changed, and in 2005, the federal law changed and the entire country is equal for all persons....anyone on planet earth can go to Canada and get legally married.
We live in one of the two states who permit marriage. In the summer, we live in Canada. FREEDOM IS INTOXICATING. It does not mean that you are loved by all and that bigotry is non-existent. Like the end of Jim Crow, it meant that AA were legally free and in 1967, free to even marry outside their race legally.
Paul, whether it is black or red or gay or both, there is always those in LAW and in RELIGION who want to label you unworthy of MAJORITY CLASS RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES.
And oh, I think we deserve FREEDOM....I taste it a little bit in MA, and when in Canada, I taste it everywhere.....IT IS ABSOLUTELY DELICIOUS.
Posted by A B on 12/20/2008 @ 10:41AM PT
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Raymond - all we've done for the last 30 years is candlelight vigilsand gee - that's really gotten all our voices heard. i'm not advocating violence against people but some overturned police cars (which we've paid for) and some artful graffiti, broken glass, and burning trash cans might be good for the soul. I respect your opinion but i won't accept your piousness.
Posted by david jensen on 12/20/2008 @ 10:57AM PT
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Listen, David....I want to reply to you but our son has a birthday party for one of his kindergartner buddies and I have to go and be a dad.....but I have some more thoughts on this.
PS - if you knew.....pious is not my bag. or spiked heels....
Posted by A B on 12/20/2008 @ 11:27AM PT
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Raymond
Thank you for your response. I was moved. I guess for me it comes down to this; I can't rely on any politician to make my life better or worse. Only I can do that. I'm proud to live in the state of Massachusertts, where hard work and touching the lives around me resulted in part to the acknowledgement by the court and the people that we are all equal. I could marry a guy if I wanted, but I'd need a good loving reason to do so. Suffice to say even here, I feel uneasy as bigots and hate-mongers are always sneaking just below surface waiting for the opportunity to destroy a fragile won victory. Historically, the first scapegoats in a bad economy are the jews and the gays. happy Birthday to your son and congratulations to your family.
Posted by Paul Flynn on 12/20/2008 @ 12:12PM PT
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I am so tired of what I see coming every time Obama acts. He cannot satisfy all points of view. There are middle grounds to be stuck and there is give and take. On the issue of Rev Rick Warren's role in the inauguration, I think this loud 'outcry' from the gay community is as stupid the feminists 'out cry' that they want more roles in this admininstation. Support for the candidate does not ring out obligation to those supports to do thing their way. After all, there were other supports with the opposite views too.
Let him do this and show us that we can and should have tolerance for all view points and find middle grounds when that is needed. And yes, there are decisions and actions that are for the greater good that cannot satisfy everyone. If governance was so simple as taking a poll or having all the population in total agreement on issues, we would not need a president or congress or courts. If we did without these, I think we would need and a powerless admisntrator to oversea implementation of the decisions being made in total harmonoius agreement by the people.
Grow up folks.
Now for the gay community. I have nothing against you or your rights to seek rights that you think you should have. Civil Rights are comes by a process in this democracy that while it may be slow it has been so right on each time. If it is too, then the process needs to be pursued and those seeking these changes must understand that in this democracy the majority rule. Winning the hearts and mine for the general population, the congress and the administrations over time is the only way you may get this right to marry or civil unions accepted in all states. In this Republic where states' right trump in some areas, this is going to be a long struggle. YOu have just begun. If done with stupid, silly public displays of violenece and graffiti, protest of any public use of someone opposed to you, then you prolong getting the hearts and minds of the people who will ultimately make this happen for. In fact, it will fail. And, it is likely not matter how hard you try that it will fail because the foundations of our society will not be cracked with giving sanction to gay and lesbian marriage (sex). That dirty word. You are asking the public to agree that gay sex is okay and protected for the constitutions of the states and the country.
When my great grand parents were raising their families and up to 1971 in mt home state of VA, black and white folks could not legally marry. A loophole did allow mulattos to marry and this is how most of my family happens to be legitimate and not bassard children. I know this pain and the ugliness such inequalities create in our society. And, I know the struggles other groups have endured and driven their way through to get their equal rights as human beings in this country.
Now, the Gay person has his equal rights, short of same sex marriage and the benefits and liabilities that go with marriage.
I am conflicted about this and know the country is too. I do not understand what marriage has to do with living together, sharing your life and making contract to protect each other.
Civil unions and the right to adopt children if found otherwise fit may be the stepping stone that this group must first fight for.
In the meantime, this majority of Americans and the President-Elect are balancing your issues and many other issues. I can assure you that for the non gay community, the gap right to marry is not and will not be our priority. The selection of Rick Warren serves a greater purpose and was not deliberately done to be at odds with the gay community nor to make any statement by the administration. Obama has already told you where he stands and he stands closer to you than any other candidate in modern times. Things can happen under these condition for the good of the gay community and in balance with the popular beliefs on which this coountry was founded.
We are reconnecting with those values as we speak.
Amen
Posted by Brenda Wiggins on 12/20/2008 @ 12:28PM PT
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Scroll to the top,click on ideas and VOTE to urge Obama to dis-invite this homophobe .
Posted by M W on 12/20/2008 @ 12:41PM PT
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Ok this place is about ideas. So...What can we all do that will CHANGE Obama's thinking? I suggest the non violent gesture of turning your back to Warren for those attending Jan 20th. But we need ideas that will make real change going forward. We owe it to Matthew Shepard and all of us who are less than free in America. If we are all the same as pedophiles than doesn't it follow that we should all be rounded up and put away?
Posted by Rose Greene on 12/20/2008 @ 01:10PM PT
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Rose, check out the actions. There are two that can hit the mark, well one.
The Lesbian and Gay Band is the first such band to march in an Inaugural Parade. A black arm band while they march might produce the passive resistence that the Warren choice made.
That is better than turning the back, because everyone would know why that arm band would be there.
The second is one that you can do for yourself, and make you take that step. YOU wear an armband for three hours on Inaugural Day...from noon to three EST.
Now, this might be less impious than throwing your shoes or spiked heels at someone, but I am a liturgical guy and it doesn't make for effective theatre LOL.
"I know one thing for sure as I live and breathe.", said one message to me today, and continued saying this,
"The Reverend Warren will give the invocation. HRC and other gay groups will end their vitriol, and be there with bells on for the inaugural festivities. The gay band will march and look very happy. Nothing will occur....no arm bands, no protest.....gays after all ....are the new subhuman underclass in America."
What say you ?
Posted by A B on 12/20/2008 @ 01:47PM PT
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The Gay Community would do itself some good to stop claiming subhuman status. It is when you fully embrace your wholeness that the world will see that you are more like them than not. There is too much whining and not enough demonstrating the good people are you.
All that, and still do not expect marriage to be a right your get. Consider it a right to live and work in the most best country in thie world and to have the opportunity and rights of free speech and assess to government.
Why most you wear a badge that says I am a victim when you can wear the one that says you are a citizen of these United States?
Coming out of victim status does not mean going to to arrogant warrior but into positive activist mode.
Respecting Obama's choice of Warren and Warren's choice to disagree with the gay community's 'demands' is what maes us America. And we live together in peace and harmony more than in struggle against each other.
It is a battle for hearts and minds and not a battle of individual might or denial of each other's right to disagree and to be tolerant of each other. If Obama or any leader surrounded themselves with people who agreeed with them totally and condemned anyone who disagreed with any one thing that would be on staff and no one to consult with. There would not be room for ideas and learning from each other.
So get out here and set a model for the community that changes perspections that you are all sub human, angry, single minded and whiners. It is like my daddy telling to speak from a deep place in my soul and stop that high pitched whining. The latter sounds as if you are not confidence and do not really beleive in what you are saying.
Now, on to the economy, bringing our troops home and healing the American family. Seize your opportunities in the major issues of the day and show you have something to often for the greater good of the majority to which you are wanting to belong. You get equality when you act equal, with the responsibilities and expectations that go with this. Fit in and your will fit out that much less. do it well and you earn your place at the table.
Posted by Brenda Wiggins on 12/20/2008 @ 02:08PM PT
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So get out here and set a model for the community so you say. What do you think I've been doing for the last 62 years? I love the arm band suggestion and the more of us do so the more aware this country will be that we are EVERYWHERE and no different than you.
Posted by Rose Greene on 12/20/2008 @ 02:18PM PT
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I apologize for posting four times to this discussion, but I have to say that this is the best online discussion I've been a part of. The contributors are passionate and (by an large) articulate, disagreeing but not disagreeable, and not abusive. I'm so impressed with all of you and hugely uplifted just by the life of the dialogue.
IMHO, we should not be distracted by the myriad critical issues that are very much alive right now, and the fact of their existence does not negate, invalidate or postpone the fact of gay Americans' ongoing struggle for equal rights and equal treatment, not only under the law but in our day-to-day lives. There is room for all of these issues (the economy, environment, war, civil rights, etc.) and it does not require that each of us be fully involved in all issues at once for us to make significant progress virtually everywhere. Please don't tell that me my just cause is less important than yours.
I know that we are in critical times and that there are important issues that are far more urgent than my right to be legally married to my husband, or for any privileged majority to claim any rights denied to any minority, but despite the cacophony of bad news, I have a job (like the great majority of Americans) and I am not struggling for survival. Yes, I live paycheck to paycheck and yes, my life is a basic struggle, but I am not in true survival mode. I have the luxury, like the great majority of us, of bandwidth. I have space in my time and my mind and my life to direct my efforts to those causes that matter to me, to invest energy in my own areas of concern, to point out the specific injustice of gay oppression, violence, discrimination, second-class citizenship and scapegoating. We are not past this issue any more than black Americans are.
We need to not be silent. I've said it before and I'll say it again: It is the DUTY of ALL AMERICANS to speak freely. It is not just a right, it is a duty passed on to us by the founding fathers. I live "in the life" and it is not equal to the heterosexual man or woman. I know it and every one of you know it. Gay people are considered "different" and treated differently. In all the ways that shows up, it is wrong and against the core of the American democratic ideal: that all are created equally and endowed with certain inalienable rights.
So press on, never let up and embrace the passion of your struggles because that is our duty and our true American life as citizens: to be just and fair sovereign of this democracy. In this matter, we must claim and fight for just and fair treatment of gay and lesbian people to marry, work and live in a manner completely equal to all other citizens, and to recognize that this is not a separate struggle from any other struggle for equal citizenship. It is the same struggle with a different face.
We have the time, the right and the duty to work at making a fair and just society, one cause at a time.
Posted by Paul Rosenberg on 12/20/2008 @ 02:41PM PT
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Brenda Wiggins - did you enjoy writing the piece addressed to the gays and lesbians resident in this Cause subject?
How does it feel to belong to the privileged majority class with all the rights and privileges of citizenship?
How does it feel to tell us, the minority class that we should be content to live in this country with all the responsibilities of citizenship without any of the rights and privileges for ourselves and our families?
What do you think is the reason why we don't just behave like the blacks under Jim Crow? Has it ever crossed your mind that blacks are gays and lesbians too? or Native Americans?But, and this is important, Brenda Wiggins, do you think that it is YOU THE MAJORITY that decides what rights and privileges we receive under the Constitution? Do you really believe that we must play nice and maybe you guys will one day wake up and feel we have earned the rights that YOU THE MAJORITY believe we should have, and NOT have?Well, Brenda Wiggins, would you like to ask ALL OF US ON THIS BLOG - GAY OR OUR STRAIGHT ALLIES HERE what they think of you and your pal, Rick Warren?Well to paraphrase Audrey Hepburn......" JUST YOU WAIT, BRENDA WIGGINS, JUST YOU WAIT.....
Posted by A B on 12/20/2008 @ 03:03PM PT
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Hey Brenda , i know that you are certainly feeling good about yourself and aren't you just the proud as a peacock citizen standing atop your soapbox telling everybody how they ought and oughtn't be. You have all the answers, don't you? I've had my share of bull and can stand up to the most virulent. I haven't been killed, I've only been made stronger. my red, white and blue is stronger than ever. We don't need politicians or religious gasbag zealots directing our way of life. America, Let it begin. Don't Tread On Me!
Posted by Paul Flynn on 12/20/2008 @ 03:05PM PT
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Brenda and Rick are righteously right
I've seen the light
Better keep the rest of you away from Sasha's and Malia's dog!
Posted by M W on 12/20/2008 @ 05:33PM PT
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The reason there is the idea that Rick Warren represents Evangelical Christians is directly connected to the historical movement against Jews and Christians who marched with MLK; led the grape boycott with Cesar Chavez; led the boycott against Nestles for dumping tainted formula on young mothers throughout the world; helped men of conscience avoid the Viet Nam War draft; fought for the womens' Equal Rights Amendmend; continues the fight against racism, etc. etc.
Paul Weyrich [who died last week] suggested that Jerry Falwell organize the silent "Moral Majority" to drown us out! With the help of Ronald Reagon, conservative religion has had a seat at the big boy's table for more than thirty years.
As a Christian minister who has participated in most of the above, I am posting this second comment to urge decisive action! Rick Warren may be warm and cuddly; however, he is advocating hatred in the name of his God. The "Change that we can believe in" was suppose to keep those who want this nation to be a Christian nation out of the process!!
Rick warren will not allow any unrepentent homosexual to become a member of his church. He wants to end a woman's right to choose. He wants to require the government to teach Creationism in public schools. Barack Obama must hear from us that his "reaching out" is an ill-advised, huge mistake. It sends the wrong signals. This will not lead all of those "Christians" who voted against him to call him "their President."
Do not think that the LGBT community will isolate itself by taking action to stop this. If you think that having an entry in the parade means that you are getting closer to the table, I am afraid your own thinking will "marginalize" your movement.
As a Christian minister I stand in solidarity with you in the name of peace and justice.
Posted by Robert Hasty on 12/21/2008 @ 02:43AM PT
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Robert,
Pax vobiscum, brother in Christ...may the Prince of Peace guide both our words and our steps as we approach the time chosen to witness the Mystery of His Incarnation.
Ever since men like Malcolm Boyd+, or Norman Pittinger+, or in another camp, John McNeill+ or Charles Curran+ led the way to adapt Biblican contextuality to us, we have stood as a small but powerful voice against Dominionism and Theocracy.
We sometimes stand as lonesome doves to define the reality of our gay and lesbian lives today. We stand and officiate at their pledges of Christian monogamous conjugal love in a spiritual sense.
We march with them as they also recapture the civil and legal definition of marriage with its rights and privileges for all citizens guaranteed by the Constitution without prejudice to minority classes of persons.
It has more meaning for me, ordained since 1972 and committed since 1976, and legally married since 2003. After decades, we are the father of an energetic 6 year old.
Rick Warren has the iron fist of exclusion and theocratic enforcement while wearing the silk glove of false compassion.
The Right Wing Dominionists understand his invitation and what perception it provides to the people who observe these choices.
The clergyman who gives the invocation sets the moral tone for this new administration. No other person on that Capitol Hill pulpit will do this. Certainly, no other pre-inaugural festivity will assuage our pain, or produce a counterfoil to Warren.
The "official spin" is that the Right Wing Dominionists are angry. They have called for Warren to rescind his acceptance. To be sure, Obama will not rescind his invitation. He has triangulated and miscalculated the level of our anger. After all, "queers are passive, scream like queens, and then shut up and go to a circuit party."
I agree with you about the Lesbian and Gay Band. I know that they should cancel in protest. But I know my community, and minorities provided an opportunity previously denied always will always take it regardless of circumstances. At least the Black Arm Band should stand in passive protest in the marching cadence of Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr.
This movement, Robert, lacks one recognizable leader. It took the African American movement a century to produce the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. The Reverend Dr. Joseph Lowery, who will deliver the benediction and like Coretta, supports our rights,
said that it took a credentialed and impressively educated minister, to head a new movement outside the NAACP.
An AA colleague told me that Obama has always felt like a stranger in his identified race. A bi-racial man raised by a white mother and her parents provided him with racial identity issues that he has admitted in his writings. A major factor in the AA male community is the "down low" and the fear of passivity and homosexuality in their male culture. Warren played on that reality, he told me.
I am afraid that the result of this will be the appointment of SECNAV White and the new thread obliterating this one that should be addressed. I know you are right and I know it will not happen.
Oppressed minorities like us are often caught in Stockholm Syndrome responses at inappropriate times.
Dr. Raymond Sawyer
Posted by A B on 12/21/2008 @ 05:27AM PT
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AN OPEN LETTER TO THE REVEREND DR. JOSEPH LOWERY.
Dear Dr. Lowery:
As a co-founder of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and its former president and colleague of Dr. and Mrs. King, we wish to publicly acknowledge the support that you have given for gay and lesbian rights, and especially and specifically, for same-sex civil marriage.
Dr. Lowery, with the passing of both Dr. and Mrs. King, you are the dean of the Promise and chancellor of the Legacy. You know very well through your life experience, that oppressed minorities often reject confrontation because of fear and reprisal.
Dr. Lowery, you will deliver the benediction prayer at the Inaugural ceremony. We can but imagine the emotional reality of that moment. However, you will succeed the invocational remarks by one of the most divisive ministers in our nation - who speaks softly but carries the big stick of oppression and exclusion for both the rights of gays and lesbians, but women's rights in general. Theocratic rhetoric must never define this moment.
In your prayer, Dr. Lowery, I ask that the Holy Spirit guide your words to include the admonition that all communities of faith in our country should be inclusive and never overcome the rights guaranteed by our Constitution dedicated to our Creator, God.
Thank you,
MANY LGBT PERSONS WHO ADMIRE YOU.
Posted by A B on 12/21/2008 @ 07:23AM PT
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Perhaps less bloviation and confrontation that is more direct is called for; are we all now old men and MCC ministers? Some of you should be required to cite sources and provide footnotes for your derivative pabulum. The elevation of Warren and this discussion evinces a pathetic yearning for acceptance, which neatly corrals the lemmings onto the back of the cyber bus as it careens into oblivion. Disengage from those who equate our relationships with paedophilia,incest and bestiality.
Posted by M W on 12/21/2008 @ 07:37AM PT
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You are quite an interesting "read" on this blog. I will leave it to our readers to decide who is the bloviator and who engages in "derivative pabulum" while requiring it of others.
There are just so many ways to engage in self-hatred, eh?
Posted by A B on 12/21/2008 @ 07:54AM PT
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I don't need acceptance from heterosexuals, in fact quite the opposite. I need to always challenge bigoted, ignorant heterosexuals whenever they blatantly lie about who and what they think I am as if that should make any difference at all. I'm grateful that there are a few heterosexuals out there who know better and are educated. Believe me, if a "seat at the table" is in the company of a bunch of passive aggressive patronising holy rollers, I'll take another table. Never needed to be tolerated and never need to be accepted, PAL.
Posted by Paul Flynn on 12/21/2008 @ 08:48AM PT
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Yes dear we've been enthralled with your personal story of fabulosity.
I'm from MA,lived in Key West for 11 years,travelled extensively and have been with my partner for 22 years.
SO WHAT
Religious relativity and personal CV has no place in this discussion. Rick is an ignorant bigot and Barack needs to know in clear unambiguous language that this is unacceptable and not bipartisanship.
Fill YOUR pews and collect lucre from believers who adhere to your self hate psychobabble; I'm a recovering former Catholic atheist.
Posted by M W on 12/21/2008 @ 08:59AM PT
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Excellent Mr Flynn
Email the DNC and remove your address from their mailing list as I have done with mine.
Posted by M W on 12/21/2008 @ 09:20AM PT
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This issue is really breaking my heart. Obama and his staff of many people have choosen to let this man speak (Pastor Rick Warren). We must let him speak, no one man decided, President or not, President elect, it was a decision of many people as there are many staff on Obama's Team. I say let the man speak after all he is at the forefront of helping people, regardless of their orientation. So to turn our backs at him in the inaugural ceremony would be not only disrespecting him, you would be disrespecting President Elect, Vice President elect, and many others who are in the ceremony, not to mention the American people who voted for Obama, and also all American people who excercise their right to vote. I am a Lesbian, who knows that Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. I have no reason to go against that ruling or belief, because the bible clearly states many times that marriage is between a Man and a Woman. YOu see I used to be on the GLBT Marriage band wagon, but then a Veteran who is straight explained to me that it must be called a Civil Union and not Marriage. Because it is fornication and homosexuality in the bible when same-sex people are together and in a loving committed relationship. That's why the Religious Right is having such an out-cry, because they feel as though their sancutity is being taken away. No doubt it would be if they let same-sex coulples get married. I want the same rights too but to call it Marriage would be an abomination of God, and of all the beliefs of organized marriage in the church. We as the GLBT Community and allies need to come together again not to be disrespectful but to ponder our heads together and try to figure out a way to call it something else, to organize a huge grass roots movement for our rights, not using the term Marriage. This country the majority are having a huge backlash because we have used the term Marriage as such. Who's with me?
Posted by Laura Blue Bird on 12/21/2008 @ 11:36AM PT
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Pretty tune blue bird;the buck stops where according to Obama?
Posted by M W on 12/21/2008 @ 11:58AM PT
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Laura -
I have chosen to leave MW and Flynn to their own devices, since their newfound atheistic faith system ( it IS a religion ) gives them, they feel, the right to spew ad hominems against those gays and lesbians who hold to their Faith and Practice.
Whether or not they choose to flame me further will have no response from me. I choose to respect them regardless of any reciprocation.
Posted by A B on 12/21/2008 @ 12:06PM PT
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Laura -
You are not responsible for the ignorance of others. Your understanding of religion concerning what is an "abomination" begins by the definition of the word itself. The word did not mean an unforgiveable sin, but breaking a cultural taboo.
You own a computer. You can google the liberal Christian and gay affirming apologetics to this LIE you have purportedly accepted - which is exactly what Rick Warren preaches about us.
There are codes broken here, however.
Most lesbians refer to LGBT and GLBT. Your statements about compliance with the Warren invocation makes me highly suspect of your true persona. "You" are either a homophobe in disguise or truly one of "OUR WALKING WOUNDED." (huge question mark)
There are individuals who want less than their full and equal rights under the Constitution, but not too many lesbian families whom I know. If you really are one of us, you need to read further.
Posted by A B on 12/21/2008 @ 12:18PM PT
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Opps blue bird you forgot Rev Ray's secret handshake verification.
He's highly suspect of you, yet looking to fill that inaugural bus.
Don't do it again lest ye be banished and shunned too.
Religious adherents only please.
Posted by M W on 12/21/2008 @ 01:15PM PT
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Raymond-
Do you keep having to run out to Home Depot to build onto the soapbox you're making ever higher for your self righteousness to be heard
.Use your wisdom to pull yourself out of your Gay Ice Age. We need you, man. but get a grip!
Posted by david jensen on 12/21/2008 @ 01:51PM PT
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David....
Home Depot? No, it should be obvious by now that we don't shop at the same place...come to think of it.....there is nothing that we share in common beyond a psychosexual orientation, eh?
You know what, your profile page is blank....totally blank.....and not one compliment.....not one.......that is sad.....so I just sent you one....God bless you, David.....
Posted by A B on 12/21/2008 @ 02:04PM PT
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WOW...best of luck in the next four years everybody, it started pretty cool and then the assumptions ran amock and it feels kinda screwball to me now. For the record: my anti-religion spews are directed at right wing so-called christians like warren.
Posted by Paul Flynn on 12/21/2008 @ 02:40PM PT
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Ahh there's the revelation we've been awaiting:political/evangelical face book complete with cyber 'friends','profiles','authorized 'causes','compliments' and 'fund raising' free of independent action. It is sad Rev Ray
Posted by M W on 12/21/2008 @ 02:40PM PT
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Just one question, my cyber friends at Change.org want to know
MW
WHAT OTHER THAN FLAMING EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU, ARE YOU HERE?????
Posted by A B on 12/21/2008 @ 02:54PM PT
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But I thought I had been shunned REV RAY?
Get down off the cross
we need the wood.
The question does not concern your religious credentials, nor my dimming flame but rather Obama's culpability in this mess and our reaction. As for your friends , they are a conspicuously silent congregation.
Posted by M W on 12/21/2008 @ 03:13PM PT
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HEY RAY -
jeez, your approval means so much to me and very "christian" in approach. As is typical of most men who call themselves "men of the church" you have practiced the tried and true tear "your" people down and then be build them back up by talking about the "exemplary" manufactured life you've created for yourself. You can hide in that church (similar to the one Warren has glued himself into) or you walk out the front door and look at the world. I was serious when I said I am listening to your opinions and serious when I said we need you. ALL of our feelings on this subject matter very much and haven't you learned through your years that this bitching at each other is something we are all pros at but not hearing each other is what has been the constant in tearing us down. Like it or not we need each other.
Posted by david jensen on 12/21/2008 @ 03:59PM PT
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David -
You ask me to share your tent, but you continue to flame my faith and my gay-affirming Christian witness, and frankly, it is offensive.
I would not be surprised, David, that you were raised in a conservative Christian denomination who directly or indirectly rejected you. Or worse, others used the Buy Bull as a weapon to inflict an emotional pain that persists today, despite your rejection of all things spiritual.
Every nation in the world who has full rights for gays and lesbians including marriage had to address both the Church and the State. Those who won, won against Roman Catholicism and Fundamentalism, an " unholy alliance of opposing sects " who actually prove the fact " that politics make for strange bedfellows." (pun very much intended).
That is true in Canada, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Norway and the Union of South Africa with Achbp. Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela both supporting marriage in a continent where gays are murdered or tortured for life terms.
Marriage is a civil right and privilege. The Church has an optional ceremony for those who obtain those civil rights. That is the case that Legal Eagles and GAY AFFIRMING CHURCHES played in those countries. DON'T KICK YOUR ALLIES IN THE GUT. IT HURTS.
I love you, David...
Posted by A B on 12/21/2008 @ 04:52PM PT
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I think he should of picked John Hagie of Texas instead. Cornerstone Church.
Posted by Kenneth Hill on 12/21/2008 @ 11:36PM PT
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Ray -
as I said it is very typical for "men of the church" to continue to wear blinders, reach out only when it befits their own ego's, and to enhance their superiority - All these actions you speak are unchristian in the extreme. You continue to speak of marriage and Canada and if these were the issue. If i want to know more about Canada i'll find it better expressed through a Joni Mitchell album. I know you can't hear any of this because you find it somehow not important to witness the picture right in front of us - but my views posted here and the choice of Warren is strictly about bigotry not about you. Your son will see thru your facade before you do if your not more open - please don't preach to me anymore. I'm sure you can lure your cash from someone more of your ilk.
Posted by david jensen on 12/22/2008 @ 01:37AM PT
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David - STOP IT, the flames are reaching the SECOND STORY.
ROFLMAO.
Kenneth....Frankly, I was thinking of a choir instead....with Hagee, Dobson, Parsley, Warren and a few AA right wing pastors to add bass and baritone voices to the homophobic lyrics.Yes, I think that they would find that singing their spiritual violence would add to the festive atmosphere of ringing in the administration where ALL VOICES are heard.....if you're gay, you will hear them.....other minorities are off the hook to hear their detractors though....
Posted by A B on 12/22/2008 @ 04:37AM PT
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So we are to be INtolerant of Christians while demanding tolerance of something that goes against the grain of Christianity?? Only a gay preacher can say a prayer for the new President?What a bunch of 'clap-trap'!!
Obama is a politician, not the 2nd coming of Christ, l think there will be a lot of disappointment to go around once people realize they have projected so much of their personal wants onto this guy!!
Posted by C O on 12/22/2008 @ 05:56AM PT
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Cathleen
You're relationships are exactly parallel to incest, paedophilia and bestiality...AMEN
Tolerate that.
Posted by M W on 12/22/2008 @ 06:06AM PT
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You are indeed busy as well, Ms. Ortolani.
Well, before you light your drive-by flames....you should read and inform yourself. Awareness is a virtuous act.
The only " personal want " that I have "projected upon" Mr. Obama is to respect all minorities and to recognize that voices of exclusion and intolerance run counter to his own stated goals.
He may be, as you say, a politician.....and on that level alone, I would say that his miscalculation will be politically costly and more costly than he might want to pay...now or in 2010 and beyond.
Posted by A B on 12/22/2008 @ 06:07AM PT
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And I agree somewhat with that analysis re Obama & his re-election; However, I hope that his Presidency is a success & feel he will be re-elected, with a slimmer majority though?When I said re Projections, I think I'm right in that many, many groups & organizations have projected their wants onto this guy. I think they see in Obama what they "want" to see, rather than what he actually is, an ambitious politician who has successfully run one of the best campaigns in history....a campaign that allowed him to be all things to all people.Hence, the great disappointments many will face, including the Gay community before the guy is even sworn in!
Posted by C O on 12/22/2008 @ 06:30AM PT
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Call Saddleback and begin your own dialog; why wait for the hateful inauguration. Sinner heal thyself:
To help you get a Fresh Start with God contact:
Stacey at (949) 609-8119 or staceyw@saddleback.net
Posted by M W on 12/22/2008 @ 07:41AM PT
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It is not just suposition that If Rick Warren had addressed his remarks on marriage or exclusion to any other racial, religious or cultural group he most certainly would not be invited to give a prayer!
Are gays and transgendered people the only groups that can be officially insulted from day one of a new president's administration? The answer is YES!
Therefore my letter to Obama:
Barack Obama,
You have already gone down the other side of the hill from where I am now, in giving Rick Warren a prominent place in the inauguration ritual.
Words mean little when your actions speak so loudly.
Listen, I know first hand why marriage is important. I come from a wonderful family - my parents have been married for 50 years. I am married now to my partner of 10 years and I have not caused the end of my parents or any straight couple's union. No one has been dishonored, no incest or bestiality has occurred in my life. The bestial behavior is now the province of righteous religious leaders who pull out those terms to slap the Gay community down again and again. Sound familiar? Rick Warren used those terms, those lies to dishonor our relationship. By doing so he dishonored my parents union, and all committed unions, not to mention the essence of Christ’s message.
I honor the tradition that that word means- Marriage- anything less is LESS.
I have experienced first hand what happen when a loving committed relationship is not given the same rights as a legally married couple. My 1st partner died in my arms in front of his parents. I loved him, cared for him, worked hard to keep him healthy and honor his wishes, only to see his parents completely change and I had NO rights. If I had been his wife I would have. Rick Warren has disgustingly suggested that my relationship was less than Michele and yours, that somehow our love and commitment is not worth the status of your relationship. I hope you never have to deal with a death only to find the people you thought you could trust turn on you.
You have work to do to win my support back. I am done working for you. I am very sad and disappointed in several of your decisions but was patiently waiting for a revelation from you, but this was the proverbial last straw, and you're not even president yet!
Who from the Gay community have you chosen to speak at your inauguration? I would really like to know.
I assume I will never hear from you- though I gave my little contributions and worked hard to see you in office. Prove me wrong please.
I do not believe that you could have chosen Rick Warren without thinking of the perceived meaning behind the choice- apparently like so many before you - you are only interested in Gay votes, but the gay community is always the last on the priority list.
Change? I think not.
Just more of the same from the teh party that brought you Don't Ask Don't Tell!
Posted by john o'shea on 12/22/2008 @ 12:32PM PT
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Michele just sent her holiday greeting with helpful volunteer suggestions. Although an atheist I responded in the holiday spirit with suggestions of my own as I would apparently be too busy with my multiple partners, underage siblings and animals: Obama for America O’ahu HIV/AIDS Resources AIDS Surveillance Program STD/AIDS Prevention Branch Department of Health 3627 Kilauea Avenue, #306 Honolulu, HI 96816 (808) 733-9010 Type of Organization: DOH program Service Area: Statewide HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Collection, analysis, interpretation and dissemination of epidemiological data regarding AIDS in Hawaii Coordination with hospitals, physicians, laboratories and other medical facilities to promote accurate and timely reporting of diagnosed AIDS cases Coordination with other AIDS surveillance programs nationwide Epidemiology support for public health decision-making American Red Cross - Hawai'i State Chapter 4155 Diamond Head Road Honolulu, HI 96816-4417 (808) 734-2101 fax: (808) 734-8318 Toll free from Neighbor Islands: 800-853-9991 (See listings in Neighbor Island sections) Type of Organization: Provides disaster relief and response to emergencies Service Area: Statewide HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Presentation on HIV/AIDS for youth, adults and employees Trains and certifies instructors for "HIV/AIDS Fundamentals" and "HIV in the Workplace" Educational materials such as videos, brochures and posters available to the public CHOW Project - Community Health Outreach Workers 33 South King Street, #313 Honolulu, HI 96813 (Also see listings in Neighbor Island sections) (808) 848-2469 fax: (808) 842-0838 Type of Organization: Community outreach for injection drug users Service Area: Statewide HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Sterile needle exchange HIV prevention education for high risk drug users HIV counseling and testing Referrals and assistance for drug treatment services Referrals for other social services Community Based Programs The Queen's Medical Center 1301 Punchbowl Street Honolulu, HI 96813 (808) 547-4762 fax: (808) 547-4625 Type of Organization: Home health and social services for people who qualify for Medicaid. Dept. of Human Services program. Service Area: O’ahu HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Services provided to HIV positive persons who are eligible for Medicaid Case management, Personal care In-home counseling/training Respite care Home delivered meals Non-Medicaid transportation Moving assistance Day health Supplemental stipend to foster families caring for children with HIV/AIDS Drug Addiction Services of Hawai'i, Inc. (DASH) 1130 N. Nimitz Highway, #C-302 Honolulu, HI 96817 (808) 538-0704 fax: (808) 538-0474 Type of Organization: Substance abuse treatment agency Service Area: O’ahu HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Methadone detox and maintenance treatment program Health education and risk reduction counseling HIV/AIDS group education HIV pre and post-test counseling HIV antibody testing HIV case management The Food Basket (aka Save the Food Basket)
Distribution Address:
Church of the Crossroads
1212 University Avenue
Honolulu, HI 96826
808-236-3126 Phone/Fax
cmwest@netscape.com
www.savethefoodbasket.org or
www.thefoodbasket.org
Mailing Address:
Save the FoodBasket
46-115 Miki Place
Kaneohe, HI 96744
Type of Organization: Food distribution Service Area: O’ahu Specific nutrition program/delivery Transportation to doctors Gay & Lesbian Community Center 2424 South Beretania Honolulu, HI 96822 (808) 951-7000 fax: (808) 951-7240 Type of Organization: Education and referral agency Service Area: Statewide HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Support groups Resource Library Lifeguard HIV prevention program Hawai`i AIDS Clinical Research Program Leahi Hospital, Young Bldg. 6th Floor 3675 Kilauea Avenue Honolulu, HI 96816 (808) 737-2751 fax: (808) 737-7047 Contact Person: Cecelia Shikuma, M.D., Program Director Type of Organization: University of Hawai’i research program Service Area: Statewide HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Federally funded program providing access to clinical drug studies for HIV infected individuals throughout the state HIV Community Care Program - O’ahu Adult and Community Care Services Branch Department of Human Services (808) 547-4762 Fax: (808) 547-4625 Type of Organization: Medicaid waiver program Service Area: O’ahu Eligibility: HIV positive, Medicaid eligible HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Case Management Personal Assistance Private Duty Nursing Respite Care Moving Assistance Home Delivered Meals Counseling/Training Non-Medical Transportation Adult Day Health Home Maintenance Environmental Accessibility Adaptations (EM) Personal Emergency Alarm Response (PERS) HIV Counseling & Testing Program - O’ahu STD/AIDS Prevention Branch Department of Health 3627 Kilauea Avenue, #305 Honolulu, HI 96816 (808) 733-9281 fax: (808) 733-9291 Contact Person: Barbara Brouillet, Program Coordinator Type of Organization: DOH program Service Area: State wide Eligibility: Services are free and anonymous/confidential for anyone 14 years and older HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Individual assessment and risk reduction counseling for individuals seeking HIV screening State wide pre and post-test counseling for HIV testing Partner notification services for HIV positive individuals Referrals to appropriate support groups and other community resources Technical guidance to medical personnel and others on HIV testing and infection Call Diamond Head Clinic (733-9281) for testing information, hours and/or appointments Hospice Hawai'i, Inc. 860 Iwilei Road Honolulu, HI 96817 (808) 924-9255 fax: (808) 922-9161 Type of Organization: Non-profit, Medicare certified hospice Service Area: O’ahu HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Specialized nursing, social work, volunteers & other services to terminally ill and families Care giver program for patients who need care, but wish to remain at home Bereavement program for loved ones Kalihi-Palama Health Care for the Homeless Project 350 Sumner Street, Suite 101 Honolulu, HI 96817 (808) 531-6322 fax: (808) 545-1161 Type of Organization: Health care Service Area: Downtown Honolulu, A'ala Park, Chinatown Eligibility: Homeless at time of intake HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Intensive case management for HIV positive homeless people Sterile needle exchange Psychiatric services for homeless with and without HIV Health clinic for homeless with and without HIV Ke Ola Mamo Lei Avenue 1505 Dillingham Boulevard, Suite 300 Honolulu, HI 96817 (808) 845-4646 fax: (808) 550-0886 Type of Organization: Native Hawaiian health care system Service Area: O’ahu HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: HIV counseling and testing, Monday thru Friday, 8 am to 6 pm HIV prevention through education to community groups Prevention Case Management (PCM) referrals Support groups for local mahu Transportation to groups and services Kokua Kalihi Valley Health Center 1846 Gulick Avenue Honolulu, HI 96819 (808) 848-0976 fax: (808) 845-0979 Type of Organization: Health Clinic Service Area: Kalihi Valley area HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: HIV /STD prevention education and counseling HIV testing and counseling Referrals Life Foundation - AIDS Services & Education for the Community 677 Ala Moana Blvd., Suite 226 Honolulu, HI 96813-5405 (808) 521-2437 fax: (808) 521-1552 (Services) fax: (808) 521-1279 (Administration) Type of Organization: AIDS service organization Service Area: O’ahu HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Client services - Free, confidential support services for men women and children with HIV/AIDS including : Case Management Newsletter: LIFEbeat, The Newsletter of the Life Foundation, Honolulu, Hawai’i Counseling Support Groups Massage therapy & haircuts Legal groups Benefits assistance Recreation programs Volunteer assistance Weekly lunches & dinners In-home support Hawaiian HIV case management "Living Well" education forums Food and nutrition assistance PLUS (Positive Living for Us) seminars Emergency financial assistance Referrals for housing, medical, dental HIV prevention services : Health education/risk reduction for youth at risk, gay and bisexual men, gay and bisexual Asian/Pacific Islander men, women, transgendered people, injection drug users Outreach HIV antibody counseling and testing for men who have sex with men, and individuals who are transgendered male to female Educational presentations in schools, the workplace, and to community groups Speakers bureau of HIV positive men and women "Bloodstream Follies" HIV prevention comic book AIDS resource library Protected sex kits HIV telephone infoline Educational materials for all age groups International education services: Comprehensive HIV/AIDS training to health educators, health care providers and Policy makers from the Asia/Pacific Region including: Training seminars for Japanese nurses and other medical professionals Peer education programs for Japanese professionals Research on HIV/AIDS curricula and training methodologies for non-western communities PWAC (People with AIDS Coalition) P.O. Box 22306 Honolulu, HI 96823 (808) 942-7922 Type of Organization: All volunteer organization for advocacy, self-development and education Service Area: O’ahu HIV/AIDS Programs & Services Quarterly newsletter Waianae Coast Comprehensive Health Center 86-260 Farrington Highway Waianae, HI 96792 (808) 696-1530 fax: 696-1533 Type of Organization: Health clinic Service Area: Waianae Coast HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: HIV prevention education and risk reduction counseling in the community or clinic Free and anonymous HIV antibody counseling and testing Open Saturdays and by appointment Waikiki Health Center 277 Ohua Avenue Honolulu, HI 96815 (808) 922-4787 fax: (808) 922-4950 Type of Organization: Health care and social services Service Area: Island of O’ahu HIV/AIDS Programs & Services: Street outreach/case management for women at high risk for HIV Street outreach/HIV prevention education/case management for runaway/throwaway street youth in Waikiki Outreach/mobile health care/HIV prevention education/case management for unsheltered homeless on O’ahu HIV prevention education for general public Statewide hotline for HIV/STD information Free and anonymous HIV antibody counseling and testing Low cost HIV antibody counseling and testing available Free or low cost screening, diagnosis and treatment of syphilis, gonorrhea and chlamydia Free or low cost general medical care, including care for HIV positive individuals
I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO VISIT HAWAII WITH MY ONLY PARTNER OF 22 YEARS.
----- Original Message ----- From: Michelle Obama To: Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: Happy holidays
This holiday season, the grassroots movement you helped build can make a big difference for those in need.
I hope you will join me in supporting your favorite charity or contributing to causes that are especially meaningful to me and my family.
While many of us will spend the holidays counting our blessings and sharing dinner with loved ones, millions of people around the country won't be so fortunate. Donating to your local food bank will help provide a holiday meal to people in your community who can't afford one.
Talking with the families of deployed troops was one of the most rewarding experiences I had during the campaign. Giving to Operation USO Care Package is a great way to send members of our military stationed around the world a reminder that someone back home is thinking of them.
This is a time to celebrate our blessings, the new year, and a new era for our country. But it's also a time to come together on behalf of those who need our help.
Do what you can to help today by locating your local food bank and giving your support:
http://my.barackobama.com/foodbanks
Or send a care package to an American in uniform:
http://my.barackobama.com/carepackage
Thank you for all that you do and have a very happy holiday season,
Michelle
Posted by M W on 12/23/2008 @ 11:41AM PT
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Melissa Etheridge said, in part, in regard to Warren - "Brothers and sisters the choice is ours now. We have the world's attention. We have the capability to create change, awesome change in this world, but before we change minds we must change hearts. Sure, there are plenty of hateful people who will always hold on to their bigotry like a child to a blanket. But there are also good people out there, Christian and otherwise that are beginning to listen. They don't hate us, they fear change. Maybe in our anger, as we consider marches and boycotts, perhaps we can consider stretching out our hands. Maybe instead of marching on his church, we can show up en mass and volunteer for one of the many organizations affiliated with his church that work for HIV/AIDS causes all around the world.Maybe if they get to know us, they wont fear us.I know, call me a dreamer, but I feel a new era is upon us.I will be attending the inauguration with my family, and with hope in my heart. I know we are headed in the direction of marriage equality and equal protection for all families.Happy Holidays my friends and a Happy New Year to you.Peace on earth, goodwill toward all men and women... and everyone in-between.Full text at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melissa-etheridge/the-choice-is-ours-now_b_152947.html
Posted by Dave Finnigan on 12/23/2008 @ 06:45PM PT
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There's that f#&K*ng AIDS cudgel again. The next bigot celebrity,theologian or politician attempting to justify hate with lucre and deeds will receive a sock from this "victim". I'm not grateful for your "help" nor your judgment. Stick to your music missy; your schtick is vapid.
Posted by M W on 12/23/2008 @ 07:32PM PT
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Her political views are her own but PLEASE, PLEASE don't encourage her to make another album.
Posted by david jensen on 12/23/2008 @ 09:51PM PT
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if this decision is an example of the "new thinking" that was promised by the Obama flacks,then we,are,indeed in very deep "doodoo"!...anyone ever hear of Cynthia Mckinney?
Posted by lenny ruderman on 12/24/2008 @ 09:00AM PT
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i have complete respect for obama's position on the RELIGIOUS institution of marriage. i want someone to ask him, point blank, if he is opposed to gay CIVIL marriage. as a professor of constitutional law, i'm certain that obama knows the difference.
SOMEONE needs to make him accountable...make him say that he is either for or against CIVIL marriage. until then, color me jaded.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/19616
rick warren's "work" to "combat" hiv/aids has been exposed for the sham it really is...obama won't dis-invite him any more than he disinvited donnie mcclurkin. nor will he give an acceptable apology to the glbt community. admitting to mistakes, it appears, isn't obama's style.
like so many others have commented, i am extremely disappointed. i am saddened and dismayed that MY place in the tent has been taken by rick warren...so much for "inclusion" when obama has chosen t exclude a core constituency in this manner. i hope the evangelicals obama is so desperately reaching out to will campaign, raise money, phone bank, etc., with the same fervor that the glbt community did because, speaking only for myself, i won't be available...i'll be too busy sitting at the back of the bus.
thanks, rosa parks, for keeping the seat warm for me. now that you and president elect obama have full civil rights and equal protection under the law, i'll just wait here at the back of the bus until it's time for "the change i deserve".
Posted by David Greer on 01/08/2009 @ 02:53PM PT
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Gah, how have decades of movement towards acceptance of GLBT individuals somehow been tossed out the window by one man coming to speak at an inaugeration?
You would think someone was beheading a puppy in the name of killing all gay people at the inaugeration from the way everyone is talking.
Get some perspective on this, you place in the tent has not been taken - there is more involvement from this community in this government than ever! Reverand Lowry is going to give the official benediction. How are you excluded? Just because another group was included?
It all seems so narrow-minded and petty. It makes me so sad, I'm close to tears right now. People who claim to be open-minded and progressive can't even conceive of listening to someone who has said a few things that have made them angry. And we wonder why its been so hard to convince people that GLBT people are good people parents and citizens. No one is willing to come together and listen to each other - it has to be all one group or all the other.
This isn't triangulation - it's a fulfillment of an election promise of renewing this country's unity. He made it over and over again. We are one people, we are one nation. Stop being so shocked.
Posted by Drew Schwetschenau on 01/10/2009 @ 08:20AM PT
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The inaug-u-ration has been marred by Warren’s hate speech and Obama‘s insensitivity toward our justifiable reaction. A noisy, angry unreasonable Chihuahua has been brought into our tent and pissed all over our families. We don’t need to behead the mongrel but rather muzzle and send him for obedience training. Keep your pet and a rolled newspaper handy. Pardon us for being “shocked” that our president has elevated our false accuser to a position of eminence.
Posted by M W on 01/10/2009 @ 10:33AM PT
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drew, let me just put it to you point blank, ok?
you have full/equal civil rights...i do not.
until we are on the same "playing field", i can use any number of exclusive comparisons i choose: examples, warren is inside the tent and that precludes room for me having a place because there are only so many seats...i'm not bitter, it's just a lack of space planning. (i can agree to disagree but only if i am treated with respect. equating my life as a life that includes incest, bestiality and pedophilia is patently offensive. if you cannot see that, i really feel for you.), "you" can have "civil unions" but you can't have "marriage"...but, hey, why are you complainin'? it's really the 'same thing', isn't it?".
sorry, you have every right to disagree with me and are entitled to your opinions...what you don't have, however, is the right to lecture me.
Posted by David Greer on 01/10/2009 @ 08:53PM PT
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