Gay Rights

This is more Christianist nonsense to rile up those who follow this hateful cult. And before any of you Christians out there get all bent out of shape, I don't mind if you believe in Jesus or whatever-that part is fine. What is not fine is when Christianists (as opposed to Christians) attempt to foist their beliefs on the rest of the country.

Sadly this is the result of some of the Christianist world going nuclear over the right of GLBTQ people to legally commit their lives to one another. Pitiful

Yep...Those religious facists are truly whacked in the head.

I preached on that last night on my ministry blog.

If you wanna read it then just go to...

http://www.ministryofthegreatspirit.blogspot.com

"...and God gave them over..."  Romans 1:24

The people of God are called out into a distinct relationship with the Creator of all things.  They are to be a peculiar people, separated unto holiness as the Lord their God is holy, “put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth” (Ephesians 4:24).  While longsuffering and merciful the Lord will not strive indefinitely with sin when hearts become dismally distant from His.  There exists a dreadful transition zone, a tipping point, when persistent and willful defiance results in the provocation of divine wrath.  In any generation when the heart of a people grows numb to the leaven of the Spirit by pronouncing right as ‘wrong’ and wrong as ‘right’, judgment is as certain to fall as a blind man who trips over a large stone.  Judgment is progressive—recall the plagues of Egypt—, observable, and commences as a result of the suppression the Word of the Lord, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Romans 1:18).  Any who turn a blind eye to biblical revelation are teetering on the ledge of a perilous hillside.  When the Word of the Lord is rejected something else takes its place and the only possibility is a psudo-truth that is demonically informed, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires” (2 Timothy 4:3).  The fruit of the initial stage of judgment is a sensual orientation where chastity and modesty are euphorically jettisoned, “Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them” (Romans 1:24).  A pornographic culture with all of its trappings is the result.  To what extent is the culture experiencing stage one?  The second stage is progressively worse—homosexuality becomes mainstream, “…God gave them over to degrading passions…women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural… men…burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts….” (Romans 1:26-27).  On this point God’s moral law is explicit, “…do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived…nor homosexuals….” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).  Unrepentant homosexuality is categorically inconsistent with the new birth and any person professing Christ yet remaining in that lifestyle is on the wide road to destruction, hell bound, being tragically deceived by Satan.  To what extent is the culture experiencing stage two?  The third stage is the loss of the general capacity to think correctly along moral lines, a spiritual dementia ensues whereby people simply cannot find their way back to the pathway of righteousness, “And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper” (Romans 1:28).  The mind is now broken and no longer works as designed, professing to be wise people in this stage have become utter fools, “They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed” (Titus 1:16).  To what extent is our culture experiencing stage three?  In addition to these three stages divine judgment may also include war, pestilence, and famine.  Considering the forgoing, perhaps those called out by the Lord unto salvation need not look to the future for judgment, it has likely already arrived.  And if so to what extent has the Church been infected by the debauchery of the culture?  Has she lost her savor?  Has she trimmed her lamp so low as not to be visible?  Repentance in the culture begins with the household of God, “Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Repent and turn away from your idols and turn your faces away from all your abominations” (Ezekiel 14:6). 

Immutable Word Ministries

Well it looks like you probably wasted your time typing all this (or cutting and pasting). For your information Mr Matteson, this is a gay rights blog. That means most of us are comfortable being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgendered-- or are strigt allies. Many of us over the years have seen and experienced this and more in the way of homophobia from the Christianists. We really are not interested in what you have on offer. Some of us belong to welcoming and affirming Christian Churches, some of us are Pagan, some are Jews or Muslims, and some of us hold no religious belief.

I for one, am an Old Catholic/Pagan and I do not appreciate being told that my MARRIAGE to a wonderful woman is sinful and dirty. It is neither. We are completely monogamous, love one another, and do not force our beliefs on others.

So, Mr. Matteson if you come here, you are simply wasting your time. No GLBTQ person with any self respect is going to listen to your hateful Bible-thumping. SO I suggest you find another venue in which to spread your hate. A pro-gay rights blog is not the place to do it.

I happened upon this site after doing a Google search on the “Manhattan Declaration.” Truthfully, I do not know a lot about either the declaration or this site but one observation stands out immediately. Those of you who describe yourself as LGBT advocates use the word hate a lot, attaching it readily to anyone who simply disagrees with you. In reality, however, your words reveal it is you who have the deep-rooted hate in your hearts. In fact, the word "hate" pops up everywhere in your writings. You wish to express, even impose, your views on the public and demand the right to do so, yet have zero tolerance for others who wish to do the same if they disagree with you, all while claiming yourselves to be tolerant. 

Disagreement and hate are two very separate things. "Disagreement" is not calling LGBT people sexually immoral. That's mean and hateful. You can justify it through religion, but let's not pretend it's not hateful.

I know there are religious people who feel that homosexuality violates the tenets of their religion. They can have the right to believe that, but they don't have the right to force the government to think the same way. Government should be in the business of giving equal rights to all citizens. Part of that freedom includes giving people the right to freedom of religion. But it also means giving citizens freedom FROM religion.

Jim, get over yourself. Anything we say in our own defense is taken as hate speech by the Religious Wrong. The only way the might be happy is if we shut up like good little girls and boys and let their homophobia go unchallenged.

We don't want to impose our views on the public. What we want is the right to be married and have the same rights as all married couples. Unfortunately any civil right we seek is intolerant. Well, I confess that I am guilty of intolerance--I have NO tolerance for the intolerance and mean-spiritedness of homophobes. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

If GLBTQ people have a deep-seated hatred in their hearts, it is the homophobes who put it there. For nearly 2,000 years we have endured persecution from the Christian Church. GLBTQ people have been beaten, disowned and murdered to preserve the comfort zones of homophobia. For most of that time there was nothing we could do, but now we can fight back for our rights.

This country was not founded on Christianity--a number of our Founding Fathers were Deists and had quite a few things to say about religion in general and Christianity in general. This is not a Christian society--it is a pluralistic society. Not everyone is a Christian. Not everyone should be a Christian.

If you don't like what we are saying, maybe you should be over at a Christianist blog. Kind of like if you don't like gay marriage then don't be  gay married. We are not going to put up with being persecuted and marginalized any longer. We're here, we're queer and we are NOT going back into our closets.

The Christianists and their allies have some nerve to claim that we are hateful when they have hated and persecuted GLBTQ people for hundreds of years. Take the log out of you own eye before you seek the sliver in the eye of another.

I am very happily intolerant of religious nutcases who wish to force me to live by their ridiculous dogma. I'm a man, and I'm marrying another man, whether you like it or not, Jim. Suck it.

You’re not stupid but the majority has always ruled and we are the minority, pudding in their hands!  If you or your friends vote against us that we remain pudding!    So tell your friends to vote for us because we are not garbage like the Fundamentalists Christian has been selling you. We are human beings and we deserve the same respect not less.  This goes for LGBT as well as for women! The Fundamentalist Christian have no right in politics and should not be allowed and  cannot be allowed to reinvent the world so it appears as if it never happened and incapable of happening!  This isn’t the intention God had but neither was I having sex with other types of animals. Women should be kept oppressed and serve her master even she don’t want to. “She has to do what she was born to do according to "Garpo"!

I got so burned up at all the idiotic, bigoted Christianist bullshit on the comments at US News online that I wrote the following.

Just Amazing

All you people who support the Manhattan Declaration are just amazing. You think you are defending marriage from the evil LGBTQ. If you truly are married in your faith, why do you care if the State or one of the welcoming affirming faiths marries a gay or lesbian couple. All I see is this smug, self-satisfied prating about "decency" and "morals". There is absolutely nothing "moral" or "decent" about denying someone their civil rights.

When it comes to intolerance, the GLBTQ cannot begin to hold a candle to the hate, intolerance, and vitriol of the Christianists and other homophobes. Every day, we see mud slung at us by ignorant individuals who feel that their rules supposedly set forth by their deity should govern the civil law in this country. We can be killed, and assaulted and often the murderers are let off by using the "gay panic" defense. You live the way we have to live every day and let us see if even the "love" you feel right now doesn't wear a bit thin.

I do not care what your holy book tells you. There are other faiths beside the Christian and those of no faith at all. They have the right to live in freedom, unbothered by you and all the rest of the quasi-Dominionist crowd who feel that they have a mandate to rule this country. Maybe if some of you fanatics would take the time to look up what many of the Founding Fathers thought of Christianity, you might be shocked. That's right, America was never meant to be only a Christian nation.

You have a right to believe in your god, another god, or no god at all. What you do not have the right to do is to deprive millions of hard-working, tax-paying fellow citizens of their civil right-- including the RIGHT TO MARRY--because you don't approve of whom they love.

I urge people here to write in as well after reading the article so that these people realise there is a living and viable opposition out there. (See link to the US News and World Report above.

read the declaration before quoting it out of context.

http://demossnews.com/manhattandeclaration/press_kit/manhattan_declaration_signers

What about non-Christians who have the Democratic right to choose and who do not support GLBT... are we "hate-filled" too? 

What about scientists... is Darwin a hateful homophobe for promoting what is popularly referred to as "survival of the fittest"? 

Darwin wrote about species being engaged in a "competitive Struggle for Existence". This struggle being seen by Darwin as primarily a struggle for food to support growth/life and the generation of young individuals to continue the species in question.  Clearly LGBT behavior does not lead to propigation of the species by a natural process.  To acheive propigation, LGBT choices must clearly infringe on the order defined by nature, relying on heterosexual behavior for the continuation of our species.  LGBT is a choice that bears no logical, scientifically beneficial outcome and one that all people have the right in a democratic society to take a stand on without being harassed for their opinion by being called any number of names (hateful, intolerant, homophobe, religious wacko, etc).

If you wish to take a stand, please do so with respect and dignity bearing in mind that those who oppose the LEGISLATED movement of LGBT rights have the democratic right to do so, whether they stand on the laws of nature or for that matter, the laws of God.

Mr. lola... 

It doesnt matter what your religion if any but more often than not, its the fundemental christians A.K.A. bible thumpers who are hate filled...Not because they simply dont support gay rights...Oh no...They would almost be tollerable then IF they just left it at not being supportive...But no...They gotta go further than just being opiniated bitches and try to legislate their self rightous "morality" into secular law.

Thats where I and all my friends and allies both here and elsewhere draw the line.

Opinions are like assholes...Everybodys got one...Hopefully... 

But laws are for everyone and so is civil rights and equality. 

Scientists are more likely than not to be accepting of those who are different and judging from your drivel about procreation being the sole reason for existance...As if we hadnt heard that worthless argument a thousand times or more...Yawnnnnnn...Anyways...Its clear that your getting desperate to rationalise and justify your prejudice.

Give it up...There aint no justification or rationalisation for prejudice.

D'ya think they'll ever get it, Thomas?

Thank the Goddess!

There are at least three sane commenters on the board (the three above my last comment)! These people never think that there are people of other beliefs or no belief at all and that they, too, have rights. I do not see these hate-filled, smug, self-satisfied posters as Christians. I consider them Christianists and I believe that given half a chance they would willingly unleash jihad in this country to make sure they eventually rule. They are arrogant in presuming to know God's Will ("God would rather that all of mankind perish, than for man to commit the smallest of sins.") Did God tell you this personally? I doubt it. You simply find excuses and reasons to soew your hatred of GLBTQ people. You are not authentic Christians--you are like the Pharisees, laying burdens on others which you would not willingly bear (prohibiting gay marriage while reserving it to yourselves...often more than one marriage). Remember: "what ye have done to the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto Me@" And "what ye have not done unto the least of these, my brethren, he have done it unto Me." SO quit pounding on GLBTQ people and let them live. Go find some naked to clothe, hungry to feed, and homeless to house, etc.!

Probably not but will keep trying. Maybe someone will see the light.

Lo La there is plenty of scientific evidence that marriage equaltiy harms no one and is actually good for those who enter the state of marriage. Reserch has proven time and again that gays do not recruit, they are a result of congenital and external influence that manifest early in life.

Here is an excellent exposition of what science says on this topic:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-science

and for the more religiously inclined here is what the Bible says:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible

Lo La the world is already incredibly crowded. What harm is it if GLBTQ people who do not reproduce themselves adopt children. It creates no more hungry mouths and gives a child a loving home.

ANd while you are ranting on about GLBTQs and reproduction, how "natural" is IVF? If not for that, many heterosexuals would have no hope of children at all. But that is OK because it makes babies for HETEROSEXUALS.

Next time before you type such drivel, sit and think for a bit!

Still trying over there...hopefully a few people will see the light. One can only hope.

There Are Others In This Country Who Are Non-Christians

These are people of other faiths or no faiths at all. Christians may still be a majority in this country, but the minorities are protected by the Constitution from mob rule by the majority. I guess if you are not straight and fundamentalist Christian you have no rights at all. I am Pagan, a religion which approves of legal same-sex marriage. Where are my religious rights to a LEGAL marriage. No one is denying your right to Christian marriage. If your faith does not provide for same-sex marriage, fine. No one can force a priest, minister, rabbi, or imam to marry a same sex couple. No one should be able to. On the other hand, no religious should be able to block the right of those Christian, Jeiwsh, Muslim, Pagans who ARE willing to provide same-sex marriage where legal. 

Actions in Maine put the lie to the "we will accept a vote by the legislature." It was voted into law by the legislature and signed by the governor, but that was NOT good enough for the Relgiious Right. The truth is that anything other than the denial of GLBTQ and women's rights is not acceptable to the Religious Right. Instead of simply saying what you believe but leaving the vote of the legislature and the signanture of the goernor, an assault on legal marriage was started immediately.

 I was legally-married in Canada in 2007, but if I become ill, there is a real possibility that my spouse will not be allowed to visit me in hospital nor will she be permitted to make health care decisions even if she has power of attorney. When my spouse became gravely ill, only the kindness of hospital personnel assured that I could be there with her and speak on her behalf. How would you like this uncertainty every time the person you love and are married to is ill. There are a host of rights and priviledges that are available to married couples, but not to same=sex couples. Put yourself in the place of a GLBTQ American and ask yourselves if you would like to live like this. Doesn't the Golden Rule say, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I guess that doesn't apply to gays and other "sinners". 

Sooner or later gay people will have the right to marry legally. It may have to come through the Courts as happened to many of the rights finally granted to African-American citizens. You have every right to have your beliefs but you do not have the right to impose them on others who do not share them--this includes the right to marry.

I have just done a google search on the Manhattan Declaration, which I think is wonderful, but realise too by saying that on this website I am entering the lion's den. Killing the unborn child IS terrible. According to the Bible marriage should be between a man and a woman and the freedom to practise religion while keeping the law when it does not conflict should be upheld unless you want to create a new generation of martyrs. The issue is not one of promoting hate (after all God calls us to love) but rather uphold the truth of God's word. Well done to the people who have stuck their necks on the block for saying what needs to be said,

John, cut the religious crap. Your religious beliefs concerning marriage do not matter in the eyes of secular law, and neither does anything that the Bible has to say. You cannot force the government to coincide its laws with your religious beliefs. Gay marriage (which will be legal, whether you like it or not) does not harm your religious freedom in any way whatsoever. You will still be able to do whatever you damn well please inside your church, you will still be able to have your religious man/woman only marriage inside your church. However, you will not be able to force your religious beliefs into the law, and try to prevent gay couples from getting legally married. Not everyone believes in your religion. I know several atheists who are married. The Christian crap does not work with me. Keep your religion out of other people's lives, please. It's irrelevant, and the government doesn't care about it.

Thanks Kevin. Sentence 1 - I thought allowing people to express views is what democracy is about. I agree with sentences 2&3. I disagree with sentence 4 - there are already cases where people who say gay marriage is wrong based on their religious beliefs are prosecuted under the law. Sentence 5 ok. Sentence 6 possibly. Sentence 7 ok but not sure of the relevance. Santence 8 clearly :-) Sentence 9 I can't impose - people have free choice in what they believe - however, I am beholden to point out what is true when opportune - I honestly try to do so in a winsome way and this thread is after all about the manhattan declaration and going back to the first post I would say rather than "this document which is of nonsense created by intolerant conservatives" that "this document is spot on created by conservatives who care about the future direction of their country". Sentence 10 truth is never irrelevant but you might be right about the government ... take care my friend.

To all those who oppose Gay Marrage,  it is not a matter of disagreeing but it is matter of Law, Thank God! We can enjoy separation of Church and State here but other parts no! What different does it make if a choice is given to us and everybody.  Like abortion not everybody is in favor it but it does exist, it needs to exist, for those people that need to have it.  If there is any debt to God, it is they who will pay for it not You!!!!!!!!!! With all due respect, how does it stop you from living? If it does you need to see a psychiatrist!

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

-Voltaire

I would like to bring to your attention a particularly nauseating reply on the USN&WR article:

RE: Thank the Goddess!

Your post is chalk full of flawed reasoning, confused thinking, hate, intolerance, bigotry, sophomoric prattle etc. For all those anti-Christ people, you don't have rights! You are the property of God Almightly. The gracious offer of salvation is not an invitation but a command from God. His Holy commandments

are not suggestions, they are commandments. However, you are able to freely choose Christ or reject him. Christians are not allowed to behead those that choose to reject Christ. Those on the left, and those who represent Islam etc. wage war (Jihad) on non participants who reject the Devil. The rabid, hateful, Devilish homosexual offenders are waging violent war (Jihad) on Christians not the other way around. Christians with the Manhattan Declaration are simply indicating, we will die for our faith, unlike the anti-Christ homosexual offenders, exteme

violent left wing, Islam and all others who hate good and love evil; will murder and destroy those who don't accept their lies as true. For those who say there are other faiths in America and the world beside Christian, oh this is true. Those other non Christian faiths all boil down to Devil worship. And for those who claim America is not just a Christain Nation, they are blind fools. Not only is America a Christian Nation, but the whole world and the Universe are Christian. Oh my God, how could I say something so narrow minded and exclusive? Very simply, it's God, Jesus the Christ who created all matter and energy out of nothing. Not Zeus, not Satan, not Obama, not Muhammad, not Hegel, not Marx, not Nietzsche, not you, not me etc. Jesus the Christ created, Jesus the Christ judges, Jesus the Christ does what he wants and what pleases him when it comes to HIS creation. So keep running around the pig pen, deluding yourself you have rights and you own yourself. And then tell me when the owner of all matter and energy decides to end your earthly life, you can keep yourself alive one second longer. You have a right to obey your creator Jesus the Christ; you DON'T have a right to break his commandments, although in his great mercy and grace, he has given you the freedom to accept or reject his offer of salvation. Where did you come from? Why are you here? Where are you going? You want to align yourself with the Devil? Then know one thing for certain, at some point in earthly existence, ALL rebellion will be stopped, it will be broken and it will be crushed! Murder babies, engage in homosexuality, etc. you will only enjoy the fruits of your sin for a short season, and you are only storing up more wrath for yourself on the day of God's Holy judgment. Murder every Christian, so what did you gain/win? More of God's wrath. Spread lies and suppress the truth, what did you gain/win? More of God's wrath. Sinner, you are in a no win situation. May

God's saving Grace change your heart of stone to a heart of flesh. Truth is hard, but in such wicked, adulterous times we must speak truth boldly. Amen.

This was my reply. Note there was no talk of killing Christians or any of that sort of thing in my original post "Thank the Goddess"--it was this poster that went postal and decided somehow that "killing Christians" was in there somewhere. The really breathtaking assumption that those who are not Christians have no rights:

Re: Re: Thank the Goddess

If I was looking for another spiritual path it would not be Christianity. I was a Christian for much of my life but finally became fed up with the homophobia, sexism, racism (of many Christian groups) and finally the hypocrisy I saw over and over and over again. If Christianity were the LAST religion I would not embrace it. 

Sorry that you Christians do not care for wicca, Paganism or any faith which does not agree with your Bronze Age Scriptures and god. I belong to MYSELF, not to your Bronze Age God who spoke in your Old Testament of "dashing children's heads against the stones." If I belong to ANY god or goddess, it is the loving Lord and Lady of the faith of our Pagan ancestors. Yes, for thousands of years Paganism in its myriad forms was the faith of old Europe--before people were forced to accept the New Religion on pain of death. NO I DO NOT BELONG TO YOUR GOD AND I NEVER WILL! How DARE you tell me that because I am not Christian I have no rights?! Who are YOU to tell another American what they should and should not believe and based on those beliefs, whether or not they have rights?! If you were thinking of attempting to bring me to Christianity, you just blew it royally. Your arrogance is simply breathtaking--telling another American they have no rights because they are not Christian. THIS is the REAL FACE OF FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANITY! 

There was no talk of killing Christians anywhere in my previous post. It is you who spoke of "killing Christians" Are you projecting what you and many of your co-religionists would like to do to those who don't buy into your religious beliefs--and of course homosexuals onto me? It certainly looks like it. It also looks like you are the ones who would kill Pagans and homosexuals given half a chance. What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"? Of course I'm sure you would be able to easily rationalise that away. Why would any rational human being want to listen to twaddle such as yours. Talk about prattle!

 I will work for marriage equality and for tax exempt status to be revoked on any religion which sticks its nose in the politics of this nation. Beyond that you can worship your goatherder god however you wish as long as you do not attempt to force others to join in.

Katie, all of the issues raised in your post have been answered time, and time, and time again. You cannot marry an animal because it cannot consent. You cannot marry your brother because of congenital disease/mutation concerns. And oh, it is Liberals, not "libs". Can I start calling you "Krissies?" or "cons". And no one wants to kill babies. It is a woman's right to decide to either continue or not continue a pregnancy. If she carries it to term and cannot support it, would you be willing to adopt and raise the child so as to give it a good, loving home? Cons love to worry about life til the baby is born and then well, good luck, kid.

What two gays or lesbians do in the privacy of their homes, especially under the bond of matrimony is none of your business. Worry about your self--I am sure you have more than enough to worry about right there. Huckabee is wrong because he is working on the side of hate. Hopefully hatred such as that of Huckabee and yourself will give way to some tolerance and love. In case you haven't noticed lately, intolerance and hate are tearing the world apart.

Hi Rev Boony, thanks for your comment and I had a look at your blog too - well presented but clearly you are angry and have a downer on us "religious bigots"! Interested in your "lions den" comment but feel I am in good company - Daniel the Hebrew prophet: after all he came out unscathed it seems and went onto accomplish a good deal of good ... but back to your rant about our imposing our values ... what about those who penalise those who hold those values - it works both ways you know? About the 3 main points of the declaration: I cannot go along with anything that takes away the right to life, including the unborn and feel this will only lead to the ruination of our culture; while same sex couples is not something I would want to prevent because in a pluralistic society it goes with the territory, but don't call it marriage, don't force me to to go along with it and be warned that when the institution of marriage is eroded as it is in this and other ways the whole fabric of society suffers and finally please respect my religious freedom as indeed I need to respect yours. As was elequontly expressed: we do need to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, but never unto Ceasar what is Gods. Now I've made you angry :-) my friend but welcome to the lions den anyway!

Paranoid much? It seems as if many Christians have a persecution complex. I consider that interesting as it is GLBTQ people who are looked down upon, harrassed, sometimes beaten/murdered, usually by folks who consider themselves to be "good Christians" and in those states where marriage equality was reality, albeit for a short while, our rights were voted away by campaigns using lies and slander, these campaigns having been run and financed by groups and individuals identifying as Christians. You and other Christians seem to think you are persecuted any time GLBTQ people are given more rights or a law is passed adding sexual orientation to the list of hate crimes. Why?

Come down off your cross, John. Christians are far from persecuted in this country--your televangelists are free to spew their hatred against GLBTQ people, you still have your precious tax-exempt organisations...the list goes on and on and on.

Marriage equality is not eroding marriage--heterosexuals have done a better job of making a mockery of marriage with their infidelity and frequent divorces than all the GLBTQ people in history could ever hope to do. Civil unions do not give GLBTQ couples all the federal rights of marriage, and the only other result of having civil unions is to make GLBTQ people into an inferior group, a group that all the homophobes can look down upon. I have yet to see one argument against marriage equality that was not just plain mean-spirited or ridiculous. If respect for marriage has suffered a decline, one need look no further than their own backyard--the heterosexuals. There is no reason to have a separate term for marriage for GLBTQ people--your discomfort for the term including us with everyone else is just something you will have to get over.

We have heard all this nonsense thousands of times before, we do not need yet another Christian to come here and lecture us as if we were children. Your words fall on deaf ears--there is no excuse for bigotry and wanting GLBTQs not to have the full rights of legal marriage is nothing but bigotry and ignorance writ large.

Thank you, Rev. Booney.

I was kind of hoping that my last comment had maybe shut the fundie bigots up permanently, but I just checked and the same bigot whose comment my last comment replied to wrote another couple of fundietarded cooments. The first two below are his latest and the two following are my comments.

RE: RE: RE: Thank the goddess

My Dear friend Ioan,

Your post is rife with primitive thinking, flawed reasoning,

confused thinking, misinformation, disinformation, omission,

untruths, halftruths, misdirection, sophomoric conclusions and

obvious straw men. First off, you are deceived by the notion you were at one time a Christian, you were never a Christian, it's impossible to be a Christian, and then to not be a Christian. However, you were at one time a countetfeit Christian or more accurately put, a hypocrite. You are a child of Satan and will continue to be until God changes your heart of stone to a heart of flesh. Presently, you are at war with Jesus the Christ, yourself and the world. Your Father or master Satan is the Father of all lies and a violent, vicious murderer.

You are a murderer and a liar such as your Father. It's your kind that have been responsible for all unjust wars and murders since time began. I was as much, if not more, before God plucked my from my former Satanism. I was like you, my mouth was an empty tomb speaking and thinking all evil, filled with hatred for good and love of evil! Admonition of homosexuality from the pulpit is a Constitutional guarantee. It's not a political issue to teach Biblical truths even though those truths may happen to be political issues. It's impossible to teach Biblical truths without coming in conflict with current political issues or laws. Think about it, according to your flawed reasoning, confused thinking and misapplication/ interpretation of present law, a Pastor could lose his/her tax exempt status for teaching against stealing. Since fighting crime is both a political issue and involves passed law. You and your radical anti-Christ, violent homosexual offenders are engaged in wishful thinking, if you think you are going to be able to remove a Pastors tax exemption for teaching that homosexuality is a vile, animal, depraved sinful behavior. The

Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion, granted I know the Devil will try his best to suppress truth and clog the Courts with such frivolous lawsuits. That's what your kind do; litigation terrorism. But before the present U.S. Supreme Court, you will lose hands down. That's not to say your kind won't lower Court judge shop, as you often do, in order to find a judge that will ignore the rule of law and the original intent

of the Constitution. As for marriage equality, as you put it, that's more Orwellian hogwash, sophomomic thinking wrapped in a putrid, Satanic straw man. I scoff and laugh at your ignorance, utter arrogance, and desperation. Only your master Satan could come up with such rubbish. Marriage equality already exists. A man is allowed to marry any woman of his choosing provided she meets that States minimum age requirement. And visa a versa for the woman. This goes for you too my friend. Polygamy, Bigamy,

same sex marriage, marrying an animal, child, brother, sister, mother, Father etc. are not, should not, must not; be allowed legally. Why?

RE: RE: RE: Thank the goddess

A person is not "gay," homosexuality is not, is not, is not, an identity, it's a morally depraved, sexually deviant, anti-Christ behavior! It's Satanic at it's very core. Further, homosexuality is a hate crime against oneself, all passive and/or aggressive participants, all of society and of course the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ioan, I'm sure you have desires you want to equate to identity in order to justify and rationalize your psychopathic, sociopathic, dirty, vile, homosexual behaviors, but desires don't equate to indentity. I think it's absolutely shameful and despicable when homosexual offenders shroud themselves with the phoney, fallacious, civil rights argument. As though there should be special rights for sexual deviants. If that, why not special rights for murderers, thieves, wife/husband beaters, child molesters etc.? I'm sure your homosexual desires are difficult to restrain. I know through research most homosexual offenders have hundreds

of sex victims in their lifetime, but your animal desires, no matter how strong or compelling; must not be normalized or given any legal ground to. I know the Devil through homosexual forced teaching and propagandizing has made much backward ground for your cause. However, you and yours must know, ultimately you will be stopped, you will be broken and you will be crushed by Jesus the Christ on judgment day! Sorry my friend, those are the cold hard facts of existence. You only get to enjoy the pleasure of your sin for a short season. Homosexuality is a behavior; skin color, hair color, gender, eye color etc. are physical characteristics that humans have no control over. And naturally God will not send us to hell for having olive color skin or brown eyes. But behaviors that are contrary to God's law, he will. e.g. homosexuality, adultry, hetersexual fornication outside the marriage convenant, murder,

lying, stealing, acts of violence etc. Ioan, I can't save you from God's eteranl wrath, I'm not interested in sugar coating the truth because I'm afraid I may turn someone away from Christ. Savaltion is of the Lord. The Devil will make people

think; boy, I better not tell people the truth in fear it will turn them off. Case and point, you are not a Christian because someone thumped you over the head too hard with a Bible, you are not a Christian because you haven't been plucked by God's grace yet. It may happen for you in your lifetime or it may not.

But when it does, your fear will turn to love. You will then know and love the truth, and will share it with others. We live in wicked times, and this requires the boldness of my style. I reserved the right to use toughness in different situations. You are severely hardened in the heart, so I must put you in check with the truth, so as to limit the wrath on your soul on the day of judgment. I can't save you from the fires of hell, but I may help put the brakes on the wrath you will receive on judgment day, by smacking you down a bit. Thank me!

You really are the fundamentalist ignoramus I originally thought you to be. People leave Christianity every day--and many of them were extremely devout, myself included.

"You are a murderer and a liar such as your Father. It's your kind that have been responsible for all unjust wars and murders since time began" No, actually it is religious fanatics like yourself who have been responsible for most of the unjust wars and many of the murderers in history. Religion, especially fundamentalist religion, has been responsible for much of the misery in the world.

Actually I am far from promiscuous. I have had far fewer sex partners than many hypocrital Christians. I am at the moment married and completely faithful to my spouse, a wonderful woman.

There is absolutely nothing pathological about someone being GLB--nothing. The APA removed homosexuality and lesbianism from the list of mental patholigies back in 1973. Recently the APA has found no evidence that "ex-gay" therapy works. In fact, it only traumatises those who resort to it.

Marriage equality is not comparable to anything that you mentioned above. It is a union voluntarily endered into by two ADULT HUMAN BEINGS. A person cannot marry an animal since, not being human, the animal cannot consent. A person cannot marry a child since the child, being a minor, cannot consent. A person cannot marry their mother, father, sister, brother or other close relatives because incest often causes major physical and mental handicaps. If one party cannot consent or is within the prohibited degrees of kinship, a marriage cannot be entered into. This is just more of the idiotic twaddle spewed by fundie bigots such as yourself. These questions have been answered time and time again, but bigots still keep making the same points, hoping that people will be so ignorant as to consider the fundies' points valid. Polygamy and bigamy are illegal in this country.

Actually, evidence is mounting that a GLBT orientation is real and that there is a genetic component to it. Research has shown that the brains of gay men are like the brains of women, and the brains of lesbians are more like the brains of men. But I suspect that no matter how much evidence one presents to you and your ilk, you will go on believing that a GLBTQ orientation does not exist. If you come to believe the scientific evidence you will have to admit that you were wrong and that you have been doing GLBT people a great injustice by spewing slander and outright lies about us.

As for putting the brakes on me, dream on. Ditto for smacking me down. It would take a hell of a lot more to put the brakes on me or smack me down. You think that by commanding me, I will bow down before you thank you. Thank you for what?

Thank you for telling the "truth" so that I could see the light? I think not. The only thing I have to thank you for is that you are honest about your hatred. It is so much easier when someone is up front about their hatred than when they sugar-coat it.

I would say that I cannot believe that he ordered me to thank him, but I do. The arrogance of many fundies is incredible. These people are seriously sick, deluded people.

Rev Booney - I am sorry that what I say makes you angry but I shouldn't be surprised. Suspect this might make your anger worse so pause, take a few deep breaths, think on something nice and read on and consider ...

I want to take issue on you Christian freedom comment - I'm from the UK but interested in the US coz as they say when America sneezes, Britain catches a cold. Just in the past hour I got this report ...

"The Employment Appeal Tribunal has today ruled that Gary McFarlane, a Christian counsellor who worked for Relate, was not unfairly dismissed or discriminated against when he was sacked for his orthodox views on sexual relationships which meant that he could not give an unequivocal commitment to help same-sex couples improve their sex lives.

The 48 year old father of two, who is also a solicitor and a former elder of a large multicultural church in Bristol, believes the Bible teaches that same-sex sexual practice is contrary to biblical teaching and therefore that he should do nothing which endorses this activity. Mr McFarlane had no objection to others in Relate counselling couples needing advice on same-sex activity, but for him it was a simple issue of conscience."

There are many other examples I could cite and I'm sure in the US too - when we arent free to excercise our conscience or pay the price if we do. True it used to be the other way round and the gays had to suffer and still do - and that was also wrong! I have friends who are gay (for sexuality is not the issue) and I have gone out of my way to combat homophobic crime in my own area - I respect their position yet disagree with it, just as I would heterosexual cohabiting couples who are not married ... but it does not make it right! No I cant force my views and nor would I try to do so - but I have to point to what is right (yes - and you are going to hate me for it - God's word says what is right) because if our nations persist in our sin there will be serious untoward consequences.

Btw - what are your credentials for being a Reverend?

Peace my friend!

PS Re. "As for the erosion of marriage...Us heterosexuals do far more to erode marriage with every case of adultry and domestic abuse as well as every case of child abuse that happens in heterosexual marriages." I AGREE!

“The Bible is the story of God's love for the world and the people of the world. It tells the history of God's love at work rescuing, renewing, and empowering humankind. It was never intended to be a book about human sexuality. Certainly, you will agree.

In fact, the Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples.

DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21

If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.

DEUTERONOMY 22:22

If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

MARK 10:1-12

Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

LEVITICUS 18:19

The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

MARK 12:18-27

If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12

If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

I'm certain you don't agree with these teachings from the Bible about sex. And you shouldn't. The list goes on: The Bible says clearly that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable, as is a king's having many concubines. (Solomon, the wisest king of all, had 1,000 concubines.) Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the Scriptures. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control, discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing one's parents nude.”

For more information, please check out:

What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality
by Rev. Mel White, co-founder of Soulforce


http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

It is time to purge and remove religion from our federal and state governments....

Just as prayer in our schools is not permitted since that would allow school officials to dictate how students should pray, we must stand firm against all religious encroachments on our society.  We live in a heterogeneous society, and many people are not Christian.  Many people are atheists,  Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc.  By promoting a certain brand of religion within our society, we are promoting accepted forms of institutionalized discrimination which punish and harm those individuals who choose to believe something different.  

This fundamental principle was astutely and cautiously advocated by the founding fathers of our nation. 

Freedom of religion includes freedom FROM religion. 

Religion does not have a monopoly on , dare I say--good-- ethics and morality.  It would do all Americans good to remember that.  

This posting is an excellent example of how the religious ethics and morality of the the RCC in concert with other Christian churches threaten and harm innocent fellow Americans--God’s other children.  Such Machiavellian principles are un-American and not ones which I wish to see infused into our politics or society.  

Religion must NEVER be permitted to pollute our government and other public institutions with beliefs that are not shared by all Americans.

John, when someone takes a job, they should either do the job or find another. He knew what was expected when he took the job. I am sick to death of homophobes take a job and then want all sorts of concessions and accomodations because of their faith issues.

American Christians have no idea of what real persecution is. I don't advocate that they be persecuted (they have enough entitlement/persecution issues as it is). No one really cares what anyone believes as long as others are not having it rammed down their throats. This is a multicultural, multi-belief (or no belief at all society, and Christians need to learn to live with that. Say and think whatever you wish in Church or at home, but if you seek to limit the rights of others, there WILL sooner or later be pushback. The problem is when fundamentalists of whatever stripe believe that their particular belief ought to be public policy/law. If you don't approve of same-sex marriage, don't get involved in one and don't let them be performed in your particular religion.

It is when Christians start trying to make their beliefs public policy/law that there is a problem. Then you get homophobes spewing the kind of hatred and misinformation that I put up here for all to see. This is the kind of crap that GLBT peole put up with on a daily basis. This publicly-spewed hatred and misinformation often leads to physical acts against our communities such as beatings and murder. No one in the gay community that I know of does such things to Christians. But any time we try to defend ourselves, the fundamentalists scream, "Persecution!" A great point is Pat Robertson and his nonsense about the Matthew Shepard Act "placing a noose around the necks of Christians". No it doesn't. What it does is to extend definition of a hate crime to GLBTQ people. If Christians do not commit hate crimes, they should have nothing to fear. They still have the right to say what they think, but we have the right to call them on it whenever their hate and prejudice rear their ugly heads.

Believe me, John, Christians are not persecuted. If it is anyone, it is GLBT people being persecuted, especially those in Uganda if that awful piece of hateful legislation is passed. Being told you cannot refuse service to a client and being sacked when you refuse is NOT persecution. Being jailed or killed because of who you love is.

Thanks to religious fanatics like Mike Huckabee, many undeserving inmates received clemency under his watch when he was governor of Arkansas. 

As an ordained Baptist minister, Huckabee believes that all people should be given second and third chances.

Giving clemency to violent criminals and sending them back into society to do further harm is wrong.  These are NOT the morals and values that I wish to see infused into society.

Huckabee's religious ideology instructed him to set free many harden criminals.  His blinded and misguided philosophy has only harmed, if not killed, many  more innocent people.

There is no room for religion in the halls of government.

Mr. Matteson, do you know what Romans 1:24 means?  We are talking about the lust of man and turning to Homosexuals who are born that way!  Not homosexuality is a sin or Homosexuals are sinners!  That’s not what God meant when he said it’s an abomination!  Men should learn to keep it zipped!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God is talking about straight men turning to homosexuals for their Sexual needs not two loving GAY parents. 

I am sure that the Bible talks about these acts that are homosexual but not the people themselves are an abomination! I don’t have to read that Book to know that God refers to straight men and women and not Gay people!

Being a Homosexual is natural mutation of cells. Do you think in God’s infinite wisdom He wanted everything to remain the same when he knew and we know today, that everything constantly changes!  Change is good as we know today it make life more interesting, bearable, and entertaining! So fundamentalists give up your CURSADES and let my people go and be!!!!!!!!!!

Well, the homophobic element at US News and World Report is still at it. I really could use some help with this idiot. Could one of you guys answer the questions and points that they bring up in their posts and call him on their bullshit?

Anyhow, here is his latest hateful screed. I swear if I was this fanatic and mean-spirited I would think seriously about taking myself out. But then all fundie homophobes are fanatic and mean-spirited.

More Christaphobic Hate coming from homosexual offender propagandists

Ioan my Dear friend,

I find you amusing as you continue to weave and twist your lies.

You never did answer any of my questions. I'm sure it gives you some comfort to deny true science about homosexual behavior. The link I provided whether you want to accept it's contents as true or not, doesn't need your approval. Truth stands on it's own and doesn't need for you to believe in it, in order for it to be true. I suppose you are angry because it doesn't fit into your preconceived notion about homosexual and other perverted sexual behavior. You mention only a few scientists don't accept junk science about homosexual behavior. Does might make right?

Is the majority always right? Furthermore, psychiatry is not an exact science, and even if all psychiatrist's caved into violent, homosexual pressure and propaganda, it still doesn't prove your case. You and your Devilish cohorts go on with your murder and lies etc. you will only gain more of God's wrath. Once again, where is the empirical evidence, where is the primary source document to support your suppositions, who conducted and funded the research, how many subjects were tested; when and where, how many independent studies were conducted, are any of the so-called "scientists" homosexual offenders or homosexual apologists? No Ioan, I didn't check out your link, I'm already familiar with the Christaphobic trash you are peddling. You can't be trusted because you apparently are a reprobate. Do you really think I'm foolish enough to go to a link you suggested? Answer my questions and I will conduct my own research using my own avenues. Think about it, it's your kind that called for the crucification of Jesus the Christ, it's your kind that brutally tortured and murdered millions of Christian in the first four centuries, it's your kind of counterfeit, hypocrite Christians who took part in the Spanish inquisitions, it's your kind that worked with Stalin to murder millions of Christians and others, it's your kind that helped Hitler murder millions of Jews, Christians and other so-called undesirables, it's your kind that helped Pol Pot murder millions of so-called dissidents, it's your kind that helped Mao starve and murder millions of his own citizens, it's your kind that helped Saddam Hussein murder millions, it's your kind through the religion of "peace" Islam, that murders thousands of Christians every year in the Middle East through brutal torture and unspeakable acts of demonic violence e.g. hacking off arms, beheading, cutting out tongues, gouging out eyes with red hot pokers etc., it's your kind that has murdered 55 million plus of the most innocent and helpless among us in America, through the brutal, barbaric act of abortion/ infanticide etc. Now, with that kind of a resume from you and your master Satan, why would I subject my computer to any link you suggested?

Hey, Ioan, who's sending you this crap?

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The Church has been lying to us

The priests of Cotytto, the goddess of free love, were called "Baptae," the same base form of Baptism.  Why would God order a major sacrament that represents free love?  See:  http://www.Goldenrule.name/Baptism-Cotytto/

"Fornication" and "sexual immorality" only meant "prostitution" in the original Scriptures.  See:  http://www.Goldenrule.name/#THE_SEX_LIE__EVIDENCE

Today's churches stating "agape" love (Jesus' "new commandment" in John 13:34) is "non-sexual" love, is a flat-out lie; and therefore proves they are the "Antichrist."  See: http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Agape-Eros_GodsOpposition.htm then http://www.Goldenrule.name/Septuagint_overview.htm

The first non-Christian writing told that Christians "came together to celebrate genitalia," which included St. Peter and Paul.  See:  http://www.Goldenrule.name/Orgy_Tacitus-Nero.htm   I’ve found over 30 different accounts of early Christian ritual orgies, now indexed on the homepage.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT:  Jesus commanded us to NOT marry in Matthew 19:10-12.  See:  http://www.Goldenrule.name/Marriage--JESUS_COMMANDS_to_not_marry.htm 

There are many other supportive findings in protection of the innocent, indexed on the homepage:  http://www.Goldenrule.name

I found these comments following an article at the website for US NEws and World Report. Apparently this is a rather reich-wing site, at least when it comes to GLBTQ issues.

You want a culture war?  Bring it on.  I yearn for the day that the conservative movement is utterly destroyed and all members either in jail or humiliated.

Why would an Episcopalian want to become a Catholic? Here are some reasons:

If you can't stand the idea of a woman being ordained, you could convert to Catholicism and you'd never have to deal with a female priest--at least, not until their membership becomes so low that they are forced to ordain women to fill their empty pulpits (thank you so much).

If you think that openly-gay men should not be priests--let alone openly-gay women--you could convert to Catholicism, which has plenty of gay priests who are in the closet. But you'll never know which is which, so you can pretend that all the Catholic priests are straight.

Anything else? Well, there might be, but the Catholic church right now is reaching out specifically to Anglicans who are mysogynistic and homophobic.

On the other hand, would there be any reasons for a Catholic to become an Episcopalian?

Do you want to practice birth control; does it annoy you that the Pope equates human sex with animal sex? (See Vatican II for that, by the way.) Episcopalians make their own decisions on birth control without outside interference.

Do you believe in a woman's right to choose a legal procedure to end a pregnancy for her own personal reasons? The Episcopal church is pro-choice.

Is your spouse non-Catholic? Have you been refused a church marriage? Episcopalians don't observe such discrimination.

Are you gay? The Episcopal church has no regulations limiting gays' participation in church sacraments, even if you are gay, Catholic and a priest. Your priesthood comes with you--no re-ordination here. And look at it this way--as an extra bonus, the homophobic Episcopalians are leaving to become Catholics. That's a nice coincidence as far as I'm concerned.

Has a relative of yours been refused a church funeral because they committed suicide? Call an Episcopal church--they won't reject a tortured soul.

And are you a Catholic priest who has loved? Have you come to the conclusion that marriage does not in itself destroy your vocation to the priesthood?

Now that we have addressed these concerns, let me close with this: you may believe that upon leaving the Roman Catholic communion, you would be leaving the "true church." I know that Catholics have heard that among themselves. But the Episcopal church is fully vested in the Apostolic Succession, their sacraments are valid and they are fully Catholic in every sense of the word. This can be discussed in full with your local Episcopal priest.

So while hate-obsessed Episcopalians are heading to their nearby Catholic churches rather than give up their prejudices, Catholics who wish there was another spiritual refuge for their beliefs should come the other direction: to an Episcopal church. There they will find equality, acceptance, and respect. And just so you know, you won't have to be re-baptized into a communion that denigrates the sacraments of other denominations.

So to make a long story short, if you're an angry Episcopalian, by all means move to a Roman Catholic church. But if you are a Catholic looking for humanitarian Christianity, the doors of the Episcopal church are wide open every Sunday.

I wonder if it will balance out?

Bryan, Great post! Hey, any of you GLBTQ and woman-haters out there. You can also join the Orthodox Church,too...if you go Old Calendar Orthodox you can get all of the above without Benny XVI's evil looks. No women priests? Chec!. GLBTQ people not celebrated (or really even wanted)? Check!  Birth control considered sinful? Check! The Orthodox Church is running neck-and-neck with the RCC when it comes to hatred, rejection, and opression.

In time, I think it will balance out, Bryan. I'm Old Catholic/Christo-Pagan but since we are in communion with the Episcopal Church, I often attend. It's nice to see a woman like me serving at the Altar. Every parish I have ever worshipped with is very loving and accepting (for all the haters out there, this is the way Christianity is supposed to be--ya know, comfort the sick, feed the hungry, help the homeless. Nothing in there about opressing GLBTQ people or women).I really don't get all this woman and GLBTQ-hatred. So far including both totally in the life of the Church seems to be working out very well.

Have you ever cheked out Virtue Online? I did as a part of what I call my personal Hatewatch and these guys are up there on the list! The hate just oozes out of those who post over there and the Bishop Schori-bashing is off the charts. I am so glad those folks are leaving the Episcopal Church.

What blows my mind about those who will gladly sign onto a document like the Manhattan Declaration is that they claim to worship and love Jesus Christ, yet subscribe to things which I don't believe He would subscribe to in a million years. These are often the same people who have no concept of kindness or inclusiveness--just a cold, rigid formalism that rejects and hates rather than includes and loves.

I encourage all of those Catholics and Orthodox who are sick of misogyny and homophobia in their churches to join either the Episcopal or Old Catholic Church. Christianity is so much more than the legalism, rejection and opression so beloved of your churches.

'Monogamous' Gays Can Serve in ELCA Largest Lutheran Denomination in U.S. Split on Divisive Issue

By Jacqueline L. Salmon Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, August 22, 2009

Leaders of the nation's biggest Lutheran denomination voted Friday to allow gays in committed relationships to serve as clergy in the church -- making it one of the largest Christian denominations in the country to significantly open the pulpit to gays.

Previously, only celibate gays were permitted to serve as clergy in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, a denomination of 4.8 million members. But delegates to a church assembly voted 559-451 to allow gays in "life-long, monogamous" relationships to serve as clergy and professional lay leaders in the church.

The vote is the culmination of a years-long process in the ELCA, and was accompanied by plenty of emotion at the convention in Minneapolis. After standing in long lines to reach microphones during debates that extended all day, some delegates shook and others cried as they expressed their opposition or support of the measure.

Quoting the Bible and denomination founder Martin Luther, delegates sought to place the decision within their interpretation of their Lutheran faith.

"We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus' time and culture," Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. "We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood."

But other said the recommendations weaken the Biblical standards of the church.

"As Luther taught us, Scripture does not have a wax nose," said the Rev. Ryan Mills, a delegate representing Texas and Louisana. "It cannot be twisted into anything we want it to say. But that's just what we're doing with these following recommendations."

Conservatives tried to derail the vote, losing a ballot that would have required a supermajority of two-thirds to approve the proposal. They lost a similar vote earlier in the week.

Some critics of the proposal predicted its passage could cause individual congregations to leave the ELCA, which is what occurred to the 2 million-member Episcopal Church when it consecrated an openly gay bishop in 2003. Last month, Episcopalians voted to make gays eligible for any ordained ministry.

Most mainline Protestant churches are struggling to balance what many view as Biblical injunctions against the practice of homosexuality with the country's burgeoning gay-rights movement. Among the major mainline denominations, leaders of the Presbyterian Church (USA) recently defeated a proposal to ordain openly gay pastors, but with a much narrower margin than in previous votes. And United Methodist church leaders faced an emotional debate last year when they upheld their ban on openly gay clergy.

"I really believe . . . what we are about to do will split the church," said ELCA delegate John Sang of Ohio during the debate.

Delegate Terri Stagner-Collier wept as she predicted that opponents would be "ripped away" from the church if the measure were approved. "I urge you not to do this -- not to do this at all," she said, "[for] these people in the pews and in my family."

In essence, the vote puts gays under the same set of rules that have govern heterosexual clergy. They are required to be monogamous if married and to abstain from sexual relations if they are single. Individual congregations would not be compelled to take on pastors who are in same-sex relationships.

The ELCA was formed in 1988 by the merger of three Lutheran organizations, and it has 10,500 churches in the United States, including 80 in the Washington area. It is generally considered the least conservative of the three major present-day Lutheran denominations, although it has a sizable conservative minority.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082103343.html

United Church of Canada

The United Church of Canada, the largest Protestant denomination in Canada, affirms that gay and lesbian persons are welcome in the church and the ministry. The resolution "A) That all persons, regardless of their sexual orientation, who profess Jesus Christ and obedience to Him, are welcome to be or become full member of the Church. B) All members of the Church are eligible to be considered for the Ordered Ministry." was passed in 1988. This was not done, however, without intense debate over what was termed "the issue"; some congregations chose to leave the church rather than support the resolution.

The church campaigned starting in 1977 to have the federal government add sexual orientation to federal non-discrimination laws, which was accomplished in 1996.[38] The church has also engaged in activism in favour of the legalization of same-sex marriage in Canada.

Since the United States does not align itself with any particular state-religion, perhaps we should also consider non-Christian faiths who are accepting and welcoming of LGBT members.  Christianity is NOT the only world religion.  Seriously, we all need to remember that!

So…. what does Judaism have to say regarding homosexuality??

Reform Movement:

Reform Judaism, for the most part, seems to view the traditional prohibitions against homosexuality as mores from a bygone age, mores now replaced with clearer understandings of the reality of gender orientation as something which is, as it seems to me, beyond simple individual "preference."

Is Judaism capable of doing such an "about-face" on a position which has been so firmly founded in the tradition? Some have made an analogy to the tradition's disqualification of deaf people as valid witnesses, a disqualification which was later nullified when people learned more about what it means to be deaf. This reasoning would allow us to say that, since we now have more and better knowledge about homosexuality and no longer see it either as an abomination nor as mental illness, we have reason to reevaluate the tradition's negative posture vis-à-vis homosexuality.

I may be overstating the case, but in my experience during the last few years, it seems that many, if not most, Reform Jews seem to be willing to make no great distinction between homosexual and heterosexual relationships….the Reform Movement, both the "lay people" and the rabbis have come out very strongly in favor of civil rights for gays and lesbians.

Rabbi Don Rossoff, Temple B'nai Or, Morristown, NJ
http://urj.org/ask/questions/homosexuality/

Conservative Movement:

Conservative Rabbis Allow Ordained Gays, Same-Sex Unions

By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 7, 2006; Page A17

NEW YORK, Dec. 6 -- A panel of rabbis gave permission Wednesday for same-sex commitment ceremonies and ordination of gays within Conservative Judaism, a wrenching change for a movement that occupies the middle ground between orthodoxy and liberalism in Judaism.

The complicated decision by the Conservatives Movement's Committee on Jewish Law and Standards leaves it up to individual seminaries whether to ordain gay rabbis and gives individual rabbis the option of sanctioning same-sex unions. Reform Judaism, the largest branch of the faith in the United States, has ordained openly gay men and lesbians since 1990 and has allowed its rabbis to perform same-sex commitment ceremonies since 2000. Orthodox Judaism does not countenance same-sex relationships or the ordination of gay rabbis.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/06/AR2006120601247.html

Reconstructionist Movement:

The Reconstructionist Movement, an American-born form of Judaism which grew out of the Conservative Movement, has been a long time supporter of both LGBT civil rights and the inclusion of LGBT people in Jewish life. The Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association, the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, and the Jewish Reconstructionist Federation (JRF, formerly FRCH) all have long histories of supporting the rights of LGBT people. In 1985, the FRCH adopted a resolution welcoming congregations serving primarily LGBT Jews into the movement. The movement began allowing its rabbis to perform marriage rituals for same-sex couples in 1993, and since then has also prohibited discrimination in employment based on sexual orientation.

http://www.jewishmosaic.org/page/load_page/58

I just got emailed a link to something called "The Affirmation Declaration". I urge people to sign it and pass it on for others to sign.

http://www.affirmationdeclaration.org/index.php?go=home