That's what they said about the last pope.  And the one before that... They will never change.

Ive always believed mr. reed, that if a church activly involves itself in politics then it needs to lose its tax exemption.

As a religiously motivated social conservative, I couldn't agree with you more. Jesus was not a political activist. Jesus was clear that his kingdom was not part of this world and did not advocate political involvement.

Early christians were not politically involved and kept their policing to within their own congregations.

I think that is as it should be today.

Thomas McHugh has an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how you could enforce it.

Thank you mr. brown...

Im not sure either...I think the biggest hurdle to overcome would be those who have been brainwashed into believing its their devine duty to legislate their "morality" into secular law...

Well, the more states we get on our side the thinner our opposition would be spread trying to reverse progress...I say we keep plugging untill we win no matter how long it takes.

I agree with you miss reisfield completely on this but it aint just the bible thumpers false belief thats the problem...The problem is that theyve managed to sell that misconception...Among many others...To a lot of non christians as well, including a lot of our politicians whove been ignoring the constitution in favor of their religion.

Thats the whole of the constitution versus religion problem right there.

I agree with you Thomas -- which is why I believe we need to start countering the "biblical" arguments with the constitution rather than trying to make a counter-religious case for same-sex marriage.

Jill,

I congratulate you on your reasoned response. Coming from the other side (social conservative) of the religious and moral debate, I still have to say that I agree with everything you say in your post.

I don't wish to have the government do more than guarantee my right to believe and practice as I wish. In fact to go beyond that will ultimately infringe on civil rights rather than protect. Those who seek to deny these rights to others must not realize that they are risking their own.

Perhaps some will somehow think that they are proving themselves more righteous and loyal to God, or their own belief system by trying to restrict other peoples' civil freedoms. However, I have come to believe that a great deal of this debate coming out of the religious right is really being stoked by "leaders" who seek gain by the debate. There is also a lot of money and political power at stake in this debate as well.

I am very pleased with your assertion that your fight is simply about trying to win freedoms and not about trying to infringe on the rights of religion. Just as there are groups and people on the "right" who seek to take advantage of this issue, let us all be aware that there are and will continue to be others who will seek to do the same on the other side of this issue.

I decided almost 20 years ago that I was no longer going to play that right, left moral majority wedge politics game anymore. It is a perversion of my beliefs and a perversion of our government to do so.

I have a right to believe and practice as I wish and so do you. Let us take pains to protect each other in this.

Thank you William! You said it best with "I have a right to believe and practice as I wish and so do you. Let us take pains to protect each other in this." Even if I do not agree with someone, I will always protect their right to think and believe differently from me. Separation between church and state is so paramount to the success of a pluralistic democracy. Without it, we run the risk of devolving into a theocracy -- a placed I don't think any of us want to be.

I also agree with you that a lot of arguments are being fueled by the "leaders" of the various religious factions who have an ulterior motive; it is always easier to champion support for your cause when you have a common enemy. The Mormon leadership has fallen in line with this philosophy as well. Very sad IMHO.

My partner's family are devout Catholics and they are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met in my life. They love my partner unconditionally, and have welcomed me into their family with open arms (and I'm Jewish too). I have a feeling that many, if not all of them, would be disgusted to learn that their contributions to the Church are being used for such malicious purposes.

Yep and its very hypocritical of them to be touting "family values" when they still havent dealt properly with their pedophillic priests.

Damn straight...

Not to nit pick but I don't think i was born of the opposite gender or the wrong sex. I am a gay male and I know I am a male and I like being a male. I don't ever want to be a female nor does female attire interest me. It actually disgust me because its made by heterosexual men who design it to exploit the bodies of women.

It appears that you too have fallen prey to the bullshit stereotype that Gay men think they are women and Gay women think they're men. Transgender people are people who believe they were born of the wrong gender. They are different than gays, lesbians and bisexuals, because their sexual orientation is determined by what gender they believe they are and the gender they are attracted too. E.G. if a person is a transgender women who feels she is male (pre-operation) and he is attracted to females that means he's heterosexual even though "he" does not have a penis yet.

I understand your post was with the best of intentions but it appears that even you have fallen prey to misinformation. To understand more about sexual orientation from a un-bias, scientific source, please visit this link from the American Psychological Association.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html

Sexual Orientation does not shape out our personalities. Whether straight or gay ask yourself this question: Does my sexual orientation shape my personality and my goals in life?

I forgot to mention one very important thing. The reason why relationship psychologist like Dr. John Gottman feel same sex relationships are the vanguard of what heterosexual relationships could be is because LGBT think in terms of gender neutrality. A mental trait that many heterosexuals need to learn.

Marriage wasn't even allowed in the church until the 1800's as it had to do with sex. Then the churches realized they could charge people to perform the services. Now marriage is "sanctified" by the church. Give me a break.

Because money influences all of their decisions, perhaps in a few hundred years after gay marriage has been legal in the whole US for some time, they will stop protesting and spending money and start performing these marriages.

Of course, they'll have to tweak some Bible verses again or at least re-interpret them, but given the history of that book it shouldn't be that big of a problem.

I would LOVE to see an advertisement campaign that goes something like this:

"Where is the money coming from to bankroll the campaign against allowing LGBT families to live as regular citizens in our state? That's right, the same organization that moved pedophiles from one parish to another in an attempted coverup of their evil ways."

thanks for the slogan send me a private message with more details and me and my friend Danielle will work on making a comercial for it.

Mr. marshall...

I know this has been a while but if ya'll ever make such a commercial...I'd love to see it.

agreed the problem is eradicating the fundamentalist from our government. They are doing a great job with their sex scandals but more and more are worming their way out of them.

I would submit that many of these are not "hard core followers of God" as you put it. Just because one declares themselves to be so does not make them acceptable to God, although some may genuinely believe so.

Jesus referred to this in Matthew 7:21-23:

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Man William we could use you on youtube to counter react the fundamentalist plague that has been taking it over for the last year. People have become more vicious in using their bibles as a weapon to spew the most hateful of rhetoric and illogical fallacies they could possibly muster. Someone of your stature could be a great help in making people realize that their beliefs are their own and not something that they should feel they must enforce on everyone else. Thanks for your support.

Where does it say kill everyone that does not believe as we do? Why cannot these people enjoy their freedom and allow the rest of us to do the same?

Ezekial 25:17 "And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

Isaiah 13:15-16 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Jesus "said" this.

Deuteronomy 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

And: exodus 35:2 god demands that we kill everyone who works on sabbath day.
deuteronomy 2118-21 god demands that we kill disobedient teenagers
leviticus 20:13 god demands the death of homosexuals
deuteronomy 22:13-21 god demands that WE KILL GIRLS WHO ARE NOT VIRGINS WHEN THEY MARRY.
Matthew:18:2-6 jesus says, " but whoso shall offend one of these little ones(children) which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea"

There are many more, but I think you get the idea.

Miss mahoney...

I tend to think that when jesus made that statement about the sword...He wasnt advocating violence but rather was telling his followers to stand strong in their faith...Even against their own family who probably wouldnt agree with jesus's teachings.

I base that supposition on the fact that jesus never advocated the pushing of his beliefs onto others anywhere else in the new testement and the only time he got violent was when some folks were misusing religion for the sake of profit.

The Catholic Church can preach all it wants -- but it has no right to use tax-free dollars to try and influence government legislation. And that is what the Catholic Church is doing. It is not merely preaching -- it is campaigning.

The reason that religious institutions are tax exempt is because they are prohibited from influencing public legislation. By contributing money toward a ballot initiative, the Catholic Church is violating the conditions of its tax exempt status.

You can't have it both ways -- you can't argue for religious freedom while campaigning to take someone else's freedoms away.

Have you read the book ‘ IT IS TIME WE TRULY KNOW WHY JESUS WEPT” by N.K.DAVID?

Yes, must Americans do not approve gay right but

It is truly hard to expect everyone to accept gay right because nothing started without serious opposition, even end to slavery, racism, independent of nations among others were opposed. Therefore, we do not have to deny people their right, when we do not want our right to be denied. All we can do is to teach what we belief to be right but not to fight or stop others from following the “harmless” acts. Remember those that oppressed other in the past were always right, yet later they realized their mistakes.

Have you read the book ‘ IT IS TIME WE TRULY KNOW WHY JESUS WEPT” by N.K.DAVID?

Yes, must Americans do not approve gay right but

It is truly hard to expect everyone to accept gay right because nothing started without serious opposition, even end to slavery, racism, independent of nations among others were opposed. Therefore, we do not have to deny people their right, when we do not want our right to be denied. All we can do is to teach what we belief to be right but not to fight or stop others from following the “harmless” acts. Remember those that oppressed other in the past were always right, yet later they realized their mistakes.

Miss biggerstaff...

Back in the 1960's and throughout the 1970's, the majority of americans were against equality for both african americans and women...

They were wrong then and theyre wrong now.

As I said in the first sentence of my post, the majority of Americans are against gay marriage. So what you are effectively saying is that the majority of Americans should set aside their beliefs and change a thousands of years old institution into something it never has been in order to appease a very small minority. Isn't that trying to enforce your beliefs on all citizens whether they are religious or not? Why is it all right for you to force your beliefs on the majority?

Your illogical, radical claim that the Catholic Church is extensively destructive to the lives of tens of millions of people is based on complete ignorance of Catholic theology or philosophy and of the Bible, all of which are not based on lustful passion which your opnions clearly are, but reason, experience, study and the word of God himself.

The real issue at hand is your claim the Constitution affords gays the right to marry. No one in 200 centuries gave that meaning to the Constitution and as a predominently Judeo-Christian document, I believe the founders would vehemently disagree with you, as the majority of Americans still do.

Anyway, you also seem ignorant about both the essense and purpose of marriage. Marriage has nothing to do with merely loving someone nor has it ever been based upon Constitutional rights.  It was, after all, first a religious institution, in existence before civil societies, designed to reflect the triune God (the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) in the joining together of a man and woman and their joining together with their children. The institution of marriage then in the religious sense was to make sacred the sexual act of a man and a woman who through that act, and through God's will and power, could create a separate and unique human being.

Civil law codified marriage as a good to the state, recognizing that it benefited those who marry but particularly, children born of that marriage. So the state afforded special benefits and privileges to couples who married for the good of children and as a benefit to the state. How is marriage a benefit to the state? A man and a woman committed to each other and to their children will take the responsibility of raising them, financially, physcially, and spiritually providing for them and thus creating less of a burden to the state for the health and welfare of children.

Tragically, as both the essense and purpose of marriage has been eroded, denied, and discarded, the social, economic, and psychological consequences are enormous. Divorce, infidelity, incest, spousal and child abuse, drug/alcohol abuse and poverty has taken its toll on the whole of society. I am aware that religious people are just as prone to all of the above as the non-religious so am not trying to claim this erosion is solely the fault of secularists.

Marriage then was a recognition and honor of God in its religious aspect and secondly, a benefit to children and to civil society.

What we need to do is get back to the essence and purpose of the institution of marriage.

And thats great you have that opinion, however. Marriage has been around long before the abrahamic dogmas. Also same sex marriage is supported by more than 42% of the US population only 38% oppose it. So 38% is a majority over 42%? 

If you read the book Same Sex Marriage and the Constitution  by Evan Gerstmann you will understand the constitutionality of marriage in the US law starting with Malbury Vs Madison declaring what is and what isnt constitutional. The Lovings vs Virgina case set the president that marriage is a fundamental right that cannot be denied to citizens.

Please read your history before you post nonsense. Also when I claim the Catholic Church is destructive I state their lies and misinformation they barrage the public about LGBT is what is destructive. It is because of those lies people like you have the opinions like you do. They base their opinions off of misinterpreted theology, rather than reality and scientific fact. If you read what the American psychological association has to say, or any other medical association you could learn a few things about sexual orientation.

According to the bible you already judge gays as being anti-god which is certainly not the case with many LGBT. Because of that you are not welcomed in the kingdom of heaven. I dont think reading up on reality and questioning what has been indoctrinated into you will make you go to hell. So here are some links for you. Let us start you off with the religious documentation.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

http://www.religioustolerance.org/homosexu.htm

next lets let the science(reality) talk.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/1365

http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts.html

What about marriage

http://www.freedomtomarry.org/get_informed/marriage_basics/faq.php

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_marr.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/dixon_02.htm

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/righttomarry.htm

Please take the time to read these links and educate yourself on this matter instead of forming an opinion based on speculation rather than fact. You are entitled to your opinions but my Fiance Ruben and I are entitled to our constitutional, fundamental, human, civil rights. Also Elaine I will leave you with a quote.

"No one whether straight or gay, black or white, religious or atheist, should have to explain their lives to give that life meaning; to be treated with dignity and respect; and to have the same basic freedoms and rights as everyone else."

People like us shouldn't have to explain or defend our lives to people like you to be accepted as equal human beings with the same capacity for love, parenting, dignity, and honor. By forcing us to explain why you should treat us equally you defeat yourself in the process. You want to see real people who you deny should have the same rights as you watch this video of this family and tell me if you believe this gay christian family doesn't deserve the right to marry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u67v7wParas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drnYd1c7e_0&feature=channel

If you want to watch all their videos here is a direct link to their page.

http://www.youtube.com/user/depfox

Oh I am sorry I forgot to wish you well in your path to enlightenment.

The lives of people are not beliefs. To believe means you hold on to a thought, an idea. A persons life, family, and human rights are not thoughts. Everyone is entitled to their opinions however your opinions should not be allowed to deny rights to others who do you no harm. How is allowing people to be treated by the law equally to yourself enforcing a belief on you? What are you so afraid of that you feel you have to be so vehement?

No one is asking you to accept us or understand us. We are not demanding you to do anything. So how can you say that we are? That is just illogical. What we are doing is trying to secure our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness not just for ourselves, our families, and our children, but for future generations of people. Rights that it seems you take for granted.

Oh and tell me Ron, what will you do if the church turns around and starts using arguments on people with autism? Trying to condemn them and their rights? You seem to be a supporter of people with Autism, people like myself? What will you do when the church tries to strip your loved ones of their rights just because they are different? Hate can be a two way street but so can love? The question is which do you choose?

The majority of LGBT activist have choosen non-violent direct protest, the love approach, if you wish to do us harm because of that what does that say about people like you? What do you think the people who support children autism will think of your violent actions?

So tell us Ron, what would YOU lose if gays and lesbians are granted the right to marry?

The ONLY thing that you lose is the "right" to oppress us any further. You are STILL allotted the right to be a bigot. You still have the right to hate us. The ONLY thing you lose is using OUR government (yes it is ALSO the government of US LGBT citizens just as much as it is breeders) to discriminate against us.

How are we FORCING our beliefs on you? Are you all of the sudden going to be gay if marriage is available to same-sex couples?

Thats what I am trying to figure out Dave... How is stopping legal oppression infringing on others rights? For the most part its liberating not just the oppressed but everyone because if one group of minorities can lose their rights, its perfectly ok to take away the rights of others.... perhaps religious people maybe?

That's the thing that interest me these religious people think they can strip others of their rights but...the more they push and the harder they strike the more the world questions the soundness, veracity, and altruism of faith. Once faith has painted an ugly enough portrait of itself with they bigotry, lust for procreation, and genocide, I dont think it will be hard to make people turn agiasnt faith and erradicate it. Are they so blind in their hate that they forget this is a possibility for them? Who knows.... but I have to say one thing about faith in these hard times.

"With despiration comes faith. But, when faith uses that despiration and turns it to depravity hope is born. The candle of faith will never and can never burn as brightly as the fires of hope and love."

This not a defense of those who would seek to enforce their religious views via government, but I do think a look at what motivates many (I believe a majority) of those who would can help bring about understanding that at least can't hurt, and perhaps can even promote more progress on the issue. To make my point, I feel that I am going to need to bring in a little more on the belief side than I have in previous comments on this and other articles, but I am not here to.

     In my personal opinion, I believe that it is a relative minority of those who would consider themselves as socially conservative christians who genuinely hate gays (or anyone else for that matter). However, the strong emotions involved with faith along with normal human imperfection (I would refer to as sinful) leaves many open to political and religious manipulation.

     That is not to say that all are manipulated, but I do believe that some are unduly influenced which I have found tend to be for several reasons as follows:

     -Most who identify as Christians rarely, if ever,   give more than a cursory look at the Bible. If all a Christian has are the "bullet points", it's all to easy to think that your faith is a series of prohibitions.

     -Add to this mix an idea that the practice of homosexuality is somehow worse than the other sins.

     -Add on top of that the relative ease with which one can point the finger at someone else that is doing something that one considers unappealing rather than looking at themselves. Jesus was very aware of this tendency.(Luke 6:42)

     -Sprinkled within all of this are the fact that some are wrestling with their own feelings (I mean if they are attracted to the same sex) and may be overreacting to that by being even more vehemently opposed.

     -And to top it all off, there are great many people that play on all of these feelings to their own ends.

   I've really over simplified a complex issue here but  I really believe that many social conservatives would really be willing to tolerate this if they could be made to consider their own faith and feelings a little closer.

     Now, I didn't begin posting in the Gay Rights section to start preaching or defending my beliefs. I really have a focus on the civil aspects of this debate here, but this article and the resulting posts seems to me an appropriate time to discuss some of this. I'm not here to get into a religious argument but am more than willing to discuss the belief side further via private message rather than here provided it is a constructive discussion.

By the way, Chris Marshall, where did the quote at the end of your last comment come from?

"By the way, Chris Marshall, where did the quote at the end of your last comment come from?"

It came from my personal experience with religion. I am survivor of an ex-gay therapy group known as exodus. It was there where I learned how liberating suicide was, and how painful a 16 gauge needle with a syringe with adrenaline is when injected directly to the heart. My scars will never heal from the psychological torture they put me through, however I have moved past that enough to look at those who did such atrocities to me and the 22 others there.

They too were the victims of religious abuse. With such desperation they turned to faith, just as I did, to fix ourselves. That desperation led them to depravity and denigration of others beyond anything you could possibly imagine. But once I was revived in the ambulance and woke days later in the hospital a doctor said something to me that changed my mind forever. "It is not who you are or who you do, but what you do for others that defines you."

That message stuck with me forever. It gave me hope for a better tomorrow. So through my desperation came hope. Now I use that hope to fight as hard as I can for a better tomorrow for all not just LGBT. That hope led me to the life I have now.

My hope was also intensified when I met Ruben. A year past since exodus and I was posting artwork to release the frustrations and alleviate the scars I had from exodus. Ruben saw my work and quickly he became my friend. Every night that I cried he was there for me. He is my best friend who was the one who really saved my life. It wasn't a god; it wasn't a messiah, but another human being. Its been seven years since we met and now we plan our future together and one day our marriage.

Since exodus I have studied religion as a hobby combined with my studies of human anatomy and forensic science. I have studied 27 religions, but taken from a literal point none are more destructive, spiritually destroying, and vehement than the abrahamic dogmas; Dogmas that call for intense violence on one page then peace on another. The hypocrisy of such text led me to become an atheist.

I do not feel sorry for people who take these three dogmas literally, but I feel sorry for their victims they indoctrinate. Faith has so much capacity for love, but with fundamentalism that love is perverted outside the realm of reality to something completely different than love.

"I don't hate the homosexuals I just want to save them from their sin and help them realize the truth" -Anita Bryant said with a grin and a giggle.

Do you see love in that statement? I only see a perversion of love. I see a mind so polluted with the backwardness of hate they think that hate is love and love is sin. This is the depravity that religion has created. Religion is a double edge sword. It has a great capacity for love, but it also has a great capacity to pervert love into extreme hate.

We, all those both religious or non, who see our brothers and sisters as equal to ourselves, our families as equal; whether gay or straight, black or white, foreign born or native, we are the hope that will cast the shadow over the candle of faith until that candle melts too and with love and stops burning with hate.

Mr. rk...

Fighting for equality is hardley pushing anything onto anyone else...

Well said mr. marshall and I understand now that your not against all religions.

Im glad you survived.

This is what misinformation and propaganda does to people Ken. Telling Ron he is a loser isn't going to help him come out of his hate it only will reinforce his belief in our mistreatment is justified. However as much hate as we have towards people like Ron, we need to be there for them when they awake from their coma of hate. We dont need to forgive, but let them understand that we are not what they think we are, and that while people like me and you wont forgive them, others will and accept them. Under the darkest clouds of a bigoted heart there is a silver lining of love. When the storm breaks we must help them embrace that love and realize the darkness of those clouds.