Very good article, it is frustrating with the Religion Right use passages from the Bible to support their cause or way of thinking and ignore so many others that could contradict what their message means.  The bible should not be taken so literally, it is a serious of stories. I look at it more historical than I do factual.  I used to be very religious, but now spend my energy on just being a good and honest person.

and to add to my previous post - I'm all for equal rights in gay issues, and attend a gay-friendly church.  But I also support the right of those who have different opinions -- I just hope one day we can sensible, oipen discussions and stop hitting each other with the Bible.

What a great article!  I get so frustrated as a Christian who supports LGBT equality.  Jesus never actually admonishes homosexual acts in the bible, but he admonishes the heck out of heterosexual acts, like husbands and wives cheating on each other.  You would think if same-sex relationships were a big no-no, he would have mentioned it at least once, right?  I mean, he spent a lot of time talking about what to do and not do.  

All the biblical support for discrimination against LGBT people comes exclusively from other parts of the Bible than Jesus's teachings, most of which are Old Testement verses.  For most Christians, one effect of Christ's death and ressurection was the nullification of the original covenant made with God in the Old Testament, since the new covenant was formed in Christ's sacrifice.  So those admonitions should be void for followers of Christ.

Furthermore, most of the stories that involve homosexuality, like Sodom and Paul's letter aren't about loving same-sex relationships, they're about rape and adultery, which Jesus says are wrong no matter who you're raping/adulterating with.  So if you're married, don't have sex with someone you're not married to, whether that's a man or a woman.

For me the best summary of they way mainstream Christianity has used the bible to discriminate against LGBT is in the excellent movie Saved, about teen girls at a Christian school.  Mandy Moore's character is trying to get Jenna Malone's into a car, and to get her attention, Moore throws a bible and hits Malone on the head.  Malone turns around, sighs, and says "You people don't you get it.  This is not a weapon."  She's right.    

Separation is not being practiced today. We must insist on having religion keep in churches. Today the churches are using their money and power to influence everything. If it were not for the ACLU there would be a law putting you in jail if you did not attend a christian church every Sunday....

Not true -- we do have something in US Constitution calling for freedom of religion, and prohibiting the government from supporting any religion.  We also have something calling for freedom of speech, which protects the right of church-goers to voice their concerns wherever they want.

Oh my MJ... thanks for the share, I think. Sent out to friends with views way way out on both sides. We will see what hits the fan.

The Bible is the Word of God. Whether you believe in Him or not, He made the world and all in it. Period. The Bible is not anti-people, or anti-gay people. It is anti-sin. So many get this wrong. God loves us all and His son Jesus Christ died for everyone and took their sins upon Himself. If we believe, we are forgiven. What the Bible says about homosexual behavior is that it is a sin and an abomination against God. It says not to do the sin. It doesn't say anything about hating the sinner. We all sin. The key here is repentance. We are to ask for forgiveness and then not do what we asked for forgiveness for anymore. If God hated sinners, do you think He's have placed His son on a cross because of us? I doubt it. To God, sin is sin. He doesn't hate one sin more than another. He hates it all. When God says don't do something, we shouldn't do it. The trouble with people is that we don't want to be denied anything. We put our wants and needs ahead of what God wants for us. The truths in the Bible can be very disturbing for those who don't want to listen and obey, so they don't. God gives us all the freedom to make choices in our lives and for some that means disobedience to Him or not acknowledging Him at all. So be it. But on the last day, He has promised that all will know Jesus Christ - that all will see Him and that all will believe. It is such a tragedy that for so many, this will be their first and only encounter with Him and that they will be cast away from Him forever. All for a few Earthly pleasures.

The Human Rights Campaign is doing the correct thing by creating "Out in Scripture" to debunk that the Bible is anti-LGBT. From Henry Knox, a religious man, has said it accurately that the Bible is to advance one's self and not oppression against LGBT people. It's good that more Clergy are supporting the very important right of same-sex marriage. Intolerant conservatives are against LGBT rights because they twist the messages of the Bible for their judgment.

Homosexuality is not sin.

It seems pointless most of the time to debate the content of the Bible. Bigots and theocrats can easily twist a mythology book into a rationale for hate. That's why I believe Bibles merit a warning label.

Debating the Bible also seems to validate the hustlers who become rich by being professional holy spokesmodels. Then they get to say that they are the real authority of the holy book and that the book itself is the supreme ruler (the same reasoning that Islamic fundamentalists use).

The principles of democracy and diversity stand for keeping chosen holy books in your drawer next to your pleasure toys and other items that are personal instead of public. The Bible does not condemn LGBT people or abortion. But I personally wouldn't be influenced if it did. Rev. Bookburn - Radio Volta

Let's not act like ONLY Christians are anti-LGBT. There are plenty of other religions that aren't so welcoming to LGBT people.

its sad they are still killing trees printing bibles.  hopefully they switch to hemp bibles until the church actually does go way of the dinosaur.  bankruptcy for both the mormon & catholic church would be inevitable if they continue to fund the opposition if this somehow ends up being 50 states left to decide who can marry.

the catholic church should immediately return all of the gold they stole from south america.  and then they should just fold up shop.  a failed attempt @ figuring how & why the world works.   there are MUCH better books out their my friend.

I am a gay man and belong to a wonderfully welcoming and accepting Methodist church.  We do much to make our neighborhood and city (Wash DC) a better place to live for everyone.  While other churches may have their issues, you can't say this about all churches.  There is still much good that we contribute.  Skeptics out there need to see that there are differences, that we're not all the same.

Oh, hey, gays can now just feel so much better about it all!! :)

Whatever.

Tell me why any gay person in their right mind, with the slightest autonomous thought still spinning in their heads, and with any real knowledge of the history of the christian church, would even want anything to do with it???

Anyone smell the hypocricy??  Christians haven't wanted gays in their ranks for these thousands of years because their "good book" says the actions of homosexuals are, quote "an abomination", unquote.   An ABOMINATION.  ok, Ummm, yeah... Call me Lil ms. Negativity, but just how much more UNaccepting a statement can be made by this, THE ANCIENT RULE BOOK of this religion???  

At what point of watered down does this religion cease to be Christianity????

  But once again, the church bends with the times to suit their needs (i.e. warm bodies with cash in the pews).  Attendance across the nation in the pews of your more liberal Christian denominations is down. 

Meanwhile folks piling into fundamentalist churches are seeing a real rally....and they do NOT accept gays.

Some of us won't buy in no matter how they claim to "accept us", whether that means gays or any other stubborn independent thinkers...I don't accept THEM.   

If you want to know what kind of person someone is, look at their actions, not where they go on Sunday.  What do they do to cause harm?  What do they do to help?  Beyond that, it's NO ONE's "business" what I believe but my own.  THAT is freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

And I just felt something...  oh,  oh... yep, there it was!  Christian fundamentalists JUST shifted even more toward the extreme... Ever imagine what extremist factions for Christ may do?  It should worry anyone who can see what's happening here... 

By all means, educate yourself with an open mind. But educate, not postulate.  It's embarrassingly obvious, and it's also further alienating various factions of the Christian Church from one another. 

Ask the Sunnis and the Shiites how that kind of alienation works out for them.

Good post, I find it very annoying when people take the bible so literally. They just use it as an excuse to gay bash and support their prejudice.

I may use up any good will that I have built up on this site with my following comments, but here goes.

I am a religious social conservative who does believe in the Bible. The Bible does condemn homosexuality and I accept that as well. HOWEVER, the Bible condemns as sin many other behaviors as well. I am personally guilty of a number of things that the Bible condemns as well. The Bible does not portray homosexuality as some how being worse than many other behaviors.

When I read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 I see a list if things of which I am guilty of in my life. I am no one to be policing other people in this regard.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous [1] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [2] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

This same passage is equally condemnatory to me as well and I understand fully that I am not somehow superior to anyone else. This passage does not give me the right to sit in judgement of others or try and take away their civil rights.

Too often people spend too much time worying about the imperfections of others rather than their own.  Jesus own words are clear on this in Matthew 7:1-5:

1(A) "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2(B) For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and(C) with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but(D) do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Finally, I have never found anything in the teachings of Jesus or of the Apostles that encourages the Church to get involved in pushing its teachings upon the greater community via the authority of the CIVIL government. (That isn't to say they weren't to preach and teach in the public).

In my view, a Church does not have the God given authority to police the community at large. I believe it has the right and responsibility to do so within itself. I don't believe that I am defending my faith or defending religious marriage by trying to enforce my beliefs through the power of the state.

I haven't changed the core of my religious beliefs at all in the last 25 years. However, I recognize that laws like DOMA and DADT have nothing to do with actually preserving my beliefs. I will still have them when they are repealed.

I am really tired of seing the Bible and peoples religious beliefs being twisted so that false religious and political leaders can gain power wealth and influence in this regard.

I urge religious social conservatives like myself to really question the motives of those who would claim to be representing you and your beliefs in the political arena.

The Bible is the true word of God whether one believes in it or not. The truth does not change. The Bible is also clear about sin. Sin is sin. Homosexuality is a sin like any other sin, however the Bible also talks about repentance and forgiving of the sins. It talks about loving the sinner and hating the sin.

There is no person who is not a sinner and that is the reason the Jesus Christ died on the cross to forgive our sins. However when we recognise the sin we are to repent and turn away from it. You cannot continue to sin and then say that the bible is a lie.

The bible has always been truthful and since we as human beings have sinned from the time we were created, we have always wanted things our way.

Christianity is only way. Through Jesus Christ and no other way. So if yo are gay, lesbian or whatever sinner you are ask God for forgiveness, repent and start all over again. If you are gay and Christians do not love you then there is a problem with that individual and not the Christan church. Christianity is about Love.

Correct, in that the truth does not change.  But I believe our human understanding of what the Bible means is always changing, and it has to.  We have a relatively limited scope of understanding, bounded by the knowledge we have and the prejudices we bring to interpreting the world around us.  As we become more educated, as we age, as we meet new people and face new challenges, as we (hopefully) overcome our short-comings, we have to re-learn what the Bible tells us.

Yes, I am gay, and yes I am a sinner, but I am not a sinner because I am gay.  Yes, Christianity is about love.  It is about loving people where they are, and what they are, not about condemning people because they are outside our limited frame of understanding.

Too many people here (perhaps myself included) are just spitting out what they believe, trying to quote the Bible to back themselves up, but are not truly listening and trying to understand what other people are saying; and questioning ourselves, and if what we believe is actually valid.  The original article on which this all is based is about trying to interpret what the Bible is actually trying to say on this subject.  We have to sometimes admit that we are wrong, that others' intepretations may have validity.  Otherwise we might as well lock ourselves in the closet and stop trying to communicate altogether.

I'm going to sign off this page, as I'm tired of reading from people who blindly refuse to believe anything other than what they've clung onto for years, for fear of learning that the Bible may have something new to teach them.

"‘The Bible is not about beating you up, but lifting us all up."

How the hell am I supposed to believe that? Forty years of "religious experience" convinces me - and how many millions of others - that the exact opposite is true! The bible is, in fact if not in theory, a WEAPON wielded by the followers of one of the single most vicious and hateful gods ever imagined by the human mind. Sorry - it's far too late for rehabilitation of this Munchausen by proxy syndrome ass hat god.

I am hated by the church - and I return that hate in kind at every possible opportunity.

While you may feel that you are hated by many churches, and by many people in the church, please know that you are not hated by all churches, and not by all people in churches.  We're not all alike.  I and the Christian church I attend openly welcome and respect all gay people as they are, unconditionally.

I am Jewish and as far as I know Jesus was born and died a Jew, yet, the Rabbi's don't hold a ground and demand that all follow their perticular views.  There is or suppose to be a seperation of Church and State and for a reason.  If people find love, comfort and caring with a member of their own sex vs. the opposit sex, then bravo for them. The bible is one of the most quoted text, however we must always remember the bible was written by man!!!!!!

We can't look under the surface.  To debate the fundamentalists, we need bible quotes that are clearly and specifically pro gay rights.  The anti-gay quotes are mostly from Ezekial, so we also need a way for the pro-gay quotes to trum Ezekial.  I did hear somewhere that in fundamentalist ideology, later passages supercede earlier ones and Ezekial is quite early, so it shouldn't be too hard to trump, but the later quotes must still be crystal clear, not implied or under the surface.

If the quotes I described don't exist, then the only option is to split the country into a Christian one and a secular one and resettle christians and gays in the wron areas like India and Pakistan and The Big Sort:

http://www.thebigsort.com/maps.php

Which gays are already getting pretty good about doing, as in Frisco and Provincetown, though neither has a gay majority yet.

Good thing American gays are a good deal more mobile than south asian peasants.

In Leviticus it states that man shall not lay with man as he lays with woman. That is all anybody, who truly believes, needs to read. If you are a follower of Jesus, who was Jewish in his earthly life, and followed the 10 commandments, you must strive to follow the example of Jesus. Jesus is proof that man must live a life without sin. We as humans will be tempted but temptation is not sin acting upon the temptation is the sin. As for the Constitution it states" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievance." nowhere is the phrase seperation of church and state.

Homosexuality is only this tip of the ice-burg of the sexual sins rampant in our time. The Bible is a treasure for those who see sin as a disease and want to be healed. The Bible is not a base-ball bat to use against those who love sin and have no inclination to repent. The call to repent should be loving and kind, and those who make it clear that they do not wish to repent should be left alone, never harrased. (The Christian is clearly told to shake the dust off his shoes and move on when this happens.) "Christians" who handle these issues otherwise are religious idiots who de-fame the name of God.

I like this post, as there has been far too much written about how "God" disapproves of homosexuality. I'm not a believer and have some difficulty understanding why people would choose to do what some people interpret an ancient text as saying, rather than following their own judgment regarding what is right.

But, I realize that many are religious and do try to live their lives righteously according to scripture, so I appreciate this discussion about how the Bible and Jesus encourage tolerance, acceptance and love of others. There is far too much hatred, bigotry and war in this world, and any discussion of how we can become a more accepting and loving species is welcome.

There is a book written by John Boswell, a noted medieval scholar that even fundies quote. He wrote a book, Christianity, Homosexuality, and Tolerance. He recorded writings from Christian leaders for first thousand years of Christianity on homosexuality. It was ambiguous and ambivalent toward homosexuality. The Church then did not define homosexuality as we do in modern times. The original language could be translated as effemine, transvestite,hermaphrodite,or male temple prostitute. The last one is what Paul usual warn about,not homosexuality itself ,but male temple prostitutes that serve other gods and goddesses.

 It was King James who wanted it to translate man lying with men,because he hated his own homosexual tendencies. Keep that in mind when you read KIng James Version. The same could be where it mentioned witches and occult. The original word for witch was actually poisoner, but King James changed it witches. He made sure there were warnings about occultic practices, too, when it meant rituals for other gods and godesses. So, read it with that in mind and with grain of salt on how the Bible is translated to English. Tom

I support Alex Montagna's opinion 110%.  Christians are the worst offenders of obnoxious behavior at times. This gentleman is free to read or not read any article he wishes!

What gall!

Dakotahgeo, Pastor/Chaplain!

David Zellers and Ray G!

I want to thank you for being two really great examples of why the Christian GLBT movement/support is growing so fast.

Keep yourselves in line first, then worry about others! If you do that, you'll be so busy cleaning up your own lives, you won't have time to meddle in others' lives!

Your arrogance knows no limits!
Dakotahgeo, Pastor/Chaplain

Absolutely! King James did not have homosexual tendencies!  He WAS a homosexual.  More power to him, lolol.  And really, he didn't write the KJV, he only approved it.

Dakotahgeo

Trust me you don't want these people for neighbors. so get moving, vote with your feet and move to Frisco or Anderson County SC respectively.

http://www.thebigsort.com/maps.php

God made men and women what they are whether straight, gay, lesbian, BI or transgendered so who are we to decide and hate them, you don't see any of these people going around, raping and killing people do you?  Plenty of straight people do.  I want to be around loving and caring people that care for each other as Jesus preaches not hippocrites that are against everything. So everyone should be accepting of others that are different even if we arent that way ourselves.  In the christian bible Jesus accepted people the way they were, why shouldn't we?

There are so many "abominations" in Leviticus that apparently deserve the death penalty that I don't see why Christians insist on citing the anti-gay "abomination" verse to justify their shabby treatment of gays. How about quoting, instead, "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

And the tale of Sodom and Gommorah is arguable at best. Even if you accept that it has to do with attempted rape and sodomy, the "good guy" in the story, Lot, offered the mob his virgin daughters instead. And that's supposed to be a lesson in morality?

I don't think HRC or anyone else should attempt another interpretation of a book that was written millenia ago, by writers who had less knowledge of the world and human nature than the average eighth-grader of today. Why pretend that this book has valid lessons for us today?

I'm glad that this HRC information is out there for those who need it but my fear is that those in the hierarchy of the various churches won't read it let alone put it to good use. 

As for me, I gave up the G/god paradigm quite some time ago; and I find the Bible just one moral code among so many.

Those with a deep interest in the book of Leviticus shoudl consider this interesting yet somewhat technical paper Dear David, Homosexual Relationships, A Halakhic Investigation, by Israeli Rabbi Simchah Roth.  Parts of it take a bit of digesting.

Hi Folks, Wow what a diversity of comments that have been made here. Very Informative and enlightening. As I sit here reading over the numerous comments made, one of the things that I am brought back to time and time again is how the Bible is a book about love and how God, Christ, Jesus or whoever you choose to call Him...faithfully spoke out on love. "This is my commandment, that you love one another as Christ loved the Church", "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"...the Bible goes on and on about the topic of love. It also goes on to talk about judging one another lest you be judged.All too often people want to take Scripture out of content to fit their needs but don't read it in it's entireity. Say for instance that famous  1 Cor. Chapter 6 Verses 9-11 where it does mention homosexuality. It talks about how the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God and all too often the people tend to focus on those things that don't apply to THEMSELVES and focus on what others are doing such as when it comes to Homosexuality.The guilty shout the loudest! Yet in the Bible when it talks about homosexuality, it says ...do not be deceived, neither liars, theives, adulterers, fornicaters, idolaters, covetous, revilers, swindlers shall inherit the Kingdom of God so the next time you want to pass judgement on someone else....make sure your own back yard is clean first. Have you lied to anyone today? Cheated on your taxes? Coveting a girl/boyfriend or a new car, gambling or not practicing the Spiritual Principles of love that God wanted you to do????? Love one another - for THIS is the greatest command.  By the way, if no one has told you that they love you today...I love you and get some NEW people in your life.

A lot of people have been saying that the Bible is against the sin of homosexuality, not against the sinner.  I am straight.  However, I know that homosexuality is not a choice and so to say that a gay person is just a person who continually sins is basically saying that the only way to not sin would be to deny their identity.  I think the main problem in the religious conservatives understanding gays is that they think gays have a choice and choose to "do wrong" in their eyes.  If they only understood that it is who they are, maybe they would see that if God created us all, God created them too, as they are.  Diversity is something to be celebrated and while at this point in time some people look down upon and in disgust at gays and lesbians, I only hope that this is overcome.  How many other things in history have people looked in disgust at only to completely accept later on in time?

Also, if we think about how much time and energy and force religious conservatives are putting into opposing anything that would help gays, imagine how easily an real problem like rape or something else that both sides agree on could be solved!  We just need to have everyone put this much energy into more important issues.  The religious right needs to just leave the gays alone, realize that they can't help who they are and realize there is nothing to fear about them.

The Bible is a very large book that has so much diversity that it can be cherry-picked to support nearly any viewpoint.  Even Hitler has quoted from the New Testament.   Please consider, however, the next time you disparage LGBT individuals that one of the commands Jesus gives His followers is to "...Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."  (Matt 5:44)  To me this is unequivocal.  How can this be argued?

There is a book by Robert Wright titled "The Evolution of God." This book describes how over time, "God" has become gentler and more loving to match the changes in this planet's cultures over time.

We've moved from the agrarian societies of Biblical times, where the vast majority of people never ventured more than ten miles from their birthplaces, to today's world culture where there is instantaneous exchange of information between billions. As we've done this, we've become less provincial and more accepting of others differences. Some sects of some religions have been slow to leave the provincialism and xenophobia of the past behind them, but this change is inevitable, if our species is to evolve into the peaceful world culture that it can be where we accept a wide variety of cultures and lifestyles and celebrate the diversity of this world culture and the uniqueness of each of its members.

The religious, non religious and the LGBT community are all part of our colorful cultural heritage and to be celebrated, not be the subject of the fear of the different and accompanying discrimination and hatred that should be buried in the past.

Matt,

There's plenty of provincialism around the planet, and while reading about the Taliban earlier today, they're certainly prime examples. But, with our educational system and all the knowledge of the planet at our fingertips, we Americans have no excuse to be as ignorant of the rest of the world as we are on average as a people.

As for Dear Sarah, I would find her humorous, except that so many Americans take her seriously, and that is scary!

Shades of Sodom and Gemmorah, LGBT discussions from decades ago until now are full of rightful discussions about Civil Rights as a legal matter and really very little about health issues.  Health issues concerning LGBT people happen to be equally relevant to straights.  Lets talk about the yucky stuff that people are loath to talk about; what people do with sex and appropriate sex practices from a health perspective.  Lets talk about an increasingly heterosexual phenomenon in porn sites on the web; N0.#1 use of internet.  Lets talk about African hetero AIDS and birth control.  Yes, let talk about anal sex.

Bishop John Shelby spong, in his must-read book "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalists", argues--quite convincingly--that Paul, author of most of the New Testament, was a closeted gay man (a lot of his letters testify to a 'sinful nature' he struggled with). Obviously this can't be proved or disproved, but it does show that one can be gay and still do important works for one's faith.

Lon,

If we're going to talk about anal sex, etc., then we should talk about such protections as condoms to make such sex safer. There are too many people in high places (such as our previous president and the Pope) that insist that sex education begin and end with abstinence. While nothing can be lower risk than abstinence, expecting people to adhere to such a rigid standard is unrealistic, therefore unproductive.

We need to deal with the real world. In the same vein, the vast majority of the LGBT community have no intention of getting the fear of God in their hearts and going straight. Therefore, those who believe that the Bible, Qua'ran, etc. preaches against this can either change their beliefs, continue to be bigoted, or choose to love their neighbors as they love themselves and not judge, lest they be judged.

I am a latecomer to this thread, a graduate level student in biblical studies, and a Deacon in a Baptist church that is currently wrestling with the question of how to express the radical welcome of God to those having a homosexual orientation.

Let me say right off the bat, the title of the article is absolutely corrrect: The Bible is NOT about beating LGBT people up! 

Instead, the Bible has as its central theme that of liberation and deliverance.  This is expressed right from the beginning stories of creation, through the stories of Exodus under Moses, through the period of monarchic establishment, through the Jewish return from exile, and most importantly, through the teachings and ACTIONS of Jesus.

Contemporary New Testament scholarship has come to recognize that the Gospel writers (especially Matthew, Mark, and Luke) were vary carefully trying to portray Jesus as a New Moses, bringing about a New Exodus which applies to all humanity, and not just the Jewish people.

The richness of the Bible is not that it merely points out a better way to live, or that it anounces the way of salvation (whatever that is), or that it challenges the oppressive structures of our world, but that it engages with the messiness and brokeness of the human condition, and in the midst of the chaos and misery in which we find ourselves, the Bible has the audacity to proclaim that this is not all there is.

The Bible acknowledges and enters into the entrapment that we all experience whether personally, or corporately, whether it is imposed externally through oppressive societal structures, or internally through our innate propensity to act in ways that we know intrinsically (instinctually?) to be wrong.  It is this human pattern of oppression that is soundly and completely repudiated by the biblical story (though I fully recognize how Christians throughout the ages have missed out on this point, to the great discredit of the church).

The wonder of the invitation of Jesus is that he calls us to come as we are, in whatever condition we are, in whatever state of brokeness we are. 

However, when yielded into his hands, we cannot remain as we are. 

Jesus' program of liberation and deliverance is about restoring us to what we are intended to be - it is about recovering our true humanity. This applies to all dimensions of our existence, whether to social or political structures, educational or religious communities, or to personal relationships and behaviours.

So, yes, the Biblical narrative, understood broadly, throws open the doors widely to the LGBT community, just as it does for everyone else.  Yet, at the same time, once embraced, the biblical story cannot leave us unchanged. Rather, it commends us to a process of transformation whereby the clothing of our sinful selves is shed and we are re-clothed in such as way as to reveal our true humanity.  I am still wrestling with what this means for myself, let alone what it means for homosexuals.  But I know without a doubt, that there is a place for each one of us in the heart of God.

So little knowledge of history. One should be aware the early church was not fond of Christ and his teachings. The ORIGINAL bible was/is a collection of letters from Christ's followers (not the words of god). They were written in an ancient language,later translated to latin. In the translation words and meanings were changed because the word or phrase was not understood or because the translater did not agree with it. In the middle ages,there was a conference held by Constantine. There were many so-called books at this time. Constantine got all to finally agree to leaving some books out (those that might not share  the church's ideas and ambitions) When the printed word arrived,the bible (those books that survived) were again translated from latin.(a language only readable by the church). The CHURCH OPPOSED ORDINARY PEOPLE EVEN CLERGY reading the newly printed bible. This was one of the first inquistions by THE CHURCH. To CONTROL imformation,ideas and the TRUTH. The battle is still raging. THE CHURCH is opposed to homosexuality and abortion ONLY because it might limit the numbers of new members,as both interfear with new births. The CHURCH is and was about POWER,not the word of God. They claim to oppose the taking of life,YET have member in the armed services. They are FALSE. The pagan religions were not overthrown by christians. The PAGAN high priest became the pope. ONLY a title change. Most of the months are named for pagans as is the "day of whorship"  SUNDAY. The day of the SUN GOD.

A loose and subjective interpretation of Mein Kampf might yield a message of hope and courage for oppressed people as well, but just like the bible it is book filled with hatred and xenophobia and should be discarded. I do not understand why the people who are most victimized by religion feel the need to slavishly appeal to its adherents. Discard that superstitious nonsense and focus on reality, that way we all might actually see some results.

Way to Go Rob. My Kudos to you. Finally someone who knows what their talkin about .....especially when it comes to history and what the Bible REALLY is all about and says. And I tip my hat off to you for not coming out with any judgemental attitudes about homosexulity. Thanks!

We all sin, the Bible points this out to us so we may improve our lives

Otto,

This sounds like "Catholic guilt." I feel that we've need to lighten up regarding some of our concepts regarding "sin," or what's right and wrong. For instance, I don't see someone who covets as "sinning," because they didn't do the act. However, coveting can be an unproductive in terms of time spent on coveting and lead to other challenging behaviors, such as us making negative statements to others, due to the emotions involved.

It's a basic a management concept that to get positive results out of employees, you have to mix in a lot of praise with any criticism, or else the person listening will tune you out. Also, you may have to lower the bar for people who are behaviorally, intellectually, or "morally" challenged lest they give up out of frustration. And, we all have to be open minded to the possibility that we as the teacher/supervisor may be wrong in some ways and always be willing to change our minds.

Many religions are evolving for many people to reflect the changes in overall societal mores and the realities of human psychology. For non-believers and those who view such religious texts as the Bible, Koran and Rg Veda as inspired by God and the works of the people of those times, this is a natural evolution. For those who view your holy books as the literal and unchanging word of God, I ask you to look at the more forgiving passages and learn to love all your brothers and sisters, as God is said to love all of us, including all of us in the LGBT community.

FORTY YEARS OF HELL: I struggled when I was in 6th grade with Lesbian tendencies (1970)when being Gay REALLy wasn't cool and you had better stay in the closet if you what was good for you. For the sake of my " Sophiscated Parents"  I kept my feelings to myself  as I tried to come to a better understanding of what was going on with me. I did NOT want to be gay and I believed it was sin in God's eyes and I would go to hell. I later went onto College and got away from home and away from my parents where I was able to venture out and explore these avenues of my life but I just never could seem to get away from the feeling that I was somehow commiting sin so I started diving into the Bible to find out just what it had to say about it for myself. I read up on every Scripture that had anything to do with Homosexuality as well a sexual sin (believe me there were plenty of Scriptures both in the Old testiment and the New testiment) and well as the Scripture which said, "For those who continue to go on willifully sinning after haveing received the Knowledge of the Truth, to them there no longer remaineth a Sacrafice for Sin"as well as I started going to Church. I wanted...No, I needed some answers.  So I shared with my Paster (now at this time I had a partner of 2yrs) what was going on in my life suppossedly in confidence and the next Sunday after Church found myself surrounded by the Decons of the Church ...after Church and the Paster as he informed me that he had took it upon himself to share it with them as the Bible says to bring MY sin before the Decons and if I don't repent and turn away from my sin to bring it later before the Elders.  Well needless to say, me and my girlfriend did stay together and I was brought once again before the Elders of the Church to suppossedly repent of my "Sin". What I couldn't understand was how could I have started feeling a certain way at 11yrs. of age and it be called SIN? To me it was natural. I was still a child and was not even sexually active. I was just finding myself physically drawn towards woman , but I didn't know about sexual matters yet. Things were different back then! Back in the 70's for an 11yr. ?!?  How Could a loving God send me to hell for something that feels NORMAL to me and the touch of a man makes my skin crawl? I prayed to God to take it away, I've fought it, I've ignored it, I've gone as long as 5 yrs. without  but I don't want to be alone, and I've been kicked out of two Churchs - - -(I wonder if GOD was sitting in there) because of being Gay.  I even overdosed 3 times and eventually put a bullet in my head ending up in a comma for 3 weeks and a yrs. mandatory in a Mental Hospital behind all of this........WHY????????    Because Churches won't practices one simple rule of thumb. Love your neighbor as Christ LOVED THE CHURCH.  If you want to bring people into your Church .....you LOVE the into your Church.  If you want to Bring them to Christ....You love the to Christ!  If you want people to change...You love them to that change. And first and formost....YOU are NOT the one who changes them if they are to be changed...GOD is the one that changes them if God Wants them to be changed....but God accepts us all just as we are. He came for the sinner any way, not for tha self righteous son of a _ itch! I learned  finally to accept myself after 52 yrs. but it was a long hard road but it was no thanks to you so called  "loving" Christians!

SIN  IS  SIN ! ! !  THERE IS NO BIG SIN OR LITTLE SIN IN THE EYE'S OF GOD!

Wow - what a story Deborah! I had just been reading some comments back and forth in this discussion regarding whether the Bible is the word of God or the word of man. Regardless of whether there is a God or not, or whether the Bible or any other book on Earth is his/her/its word, the reality is that many people do believe fervently and for them God is real.

This is why those of you who speak on behalf of some God to other believers need to be careful about condemning others, as they could be like Deborah and go into a downward spiral into some personal hell. There are far too many things that we do to each other that cause hurt to condemn others for loving even if their love isn't what you feel is right in God's eyes.

Thank You VERY MUCH Andrew. I could NOT have said it better.  You know what gets to me is that while I had these so called tongue talkin, Bible toten, layin on of the hand "so-called-God-fearin-Christians" expellin me out of the Church because I wouldn't turn from "MY Sin"  I would watch and observe some of them and how they were living their lives... and it was quit a CONTRIDICTION to suppossedly what the Bible teaches.  Some of them I knew personally and knew that they were not married but were living together outside of marriage.  Is that not against what the Bible teaches?  Then, there were those who were cheating on their spouces.  Is not Adultery against what the Bible teaches?  Then there were those that came in with hang overs on Sunday from getting drunk the night before, but does the Bible not talk about drunkards and be Ye Not drunk with wine?   Then I would watch and listen to a variety of conversations and boy the gossip and the lies that I heard being told around that Congregation- yet it talks about,  "be ye not deceived ...neither liers, nor gossipers, nor adulterers, nor fornicators, nor idolitors, etc., etc., etc.,"  I think that you get my drift, " shall inherit the Kingdom of God".  Yet NEVER once did I sit back and pass judgement on them and their lives and what they were doing. That was not my job. That was God's job. My job was to love them and to pray for them.  God has to deal with their hearts and God KNOWS them inside out just like HE knows me inside out. God knows my personal struggles more than any mere man ever could and knows why I am the way that I am or how I got to be the way that I am. Do you know what the statitics  for people of child abuse leading to sexual deviation?  Often times women who were abused  by the opposite sex as children turn to the same sex later on in life and subconsciously may not even be aware that this is why they are doing this. It isn't until after many, many yrs. of long term therapy that they come to terms with their REAL sexual selves and Christians or "SO-CALLED-CHRISTIANS" with their self-righteous judgemental attitudes are NOT helping the healing process but are in fact hindering the process by already making a  woman who often times feels very unloved and far away and abandoned by God to feel that much more-so.  This is NOT to say that ALL Lesbians or Homosexuals have been abused...some ARE BORN that way by genetics thru no fault of their own,  yet the so-call loving Christians are going to persecute these people in the name of Jesus Christ and His Love and tell them how much God loves them....while YOU treat them like poop. When Are you folks going to start LIVING the BIBLE that YOU PREACH and TEACH instead of paying lip service to it???   And then you wonder why people don't want to come to Church and have no part of YOUR GOD.  The people on the street are kinder.   I was truely searching for answers and I had an open heart and an open mind back then....but after the way that I was treated - I will NEVER step foot back into a Church again.  I listen to Church on T.V. that way, I can't be thrown out.  Just call me....Loved by God Just As I Am!

Alan Dimwit -Oh, excuse me - I must have read your name wrong....just like you didn't read my article right.  I NEVER said that the Pastor and the Elders of that Church dragged me out of my home and before them.  PUT YOUR GLASSES on and read it again.  I have limited sympathy for uneducated people (people who don't know how to read) which seems to be your case.   A also stated that that was back in the 70's and I was young (around 18 or 19yrs. old) and as far as putting up with abuse from  Churches or anyone, I came from an abusive background where both of my parents were drug and alcohol were used and I lost my innocence when I was around 5yrs. old - so abuse was what I knew.  I got adopted when I was almost 15yrs. old after the courts came into the home and took us kids out when I was 11yrs. old.   I was seeking answers from God and thought that the Church was the place to find them.  At that age it never dawned on me that NOT  ALL Churches believed the same way and to go elsewhere where I might be more accepted.  As I said, I was young.  Your coldness eludes me!   And  as far as what you believe....I don't give a rats ass what you believe, but maybe had you read what I wrote correctly you would have understood what I said and believed me, but maybe not. Who knows, who cares ?!?  But there are lots of Churches out there doing this same thing and lots of impressionable young teens being influenced by such places and sadly some of these young people are people who come from abusive families where abuse is the "norm" and they don't know any better.  They don't know to RUN and keep on running.  They just know that same ole vicious cycle.  SO,  what happened to make your heart so cold ?!?

Thomas McHugh:

I've just finished reading a number of your comments denigrating both the Bible and the people who believe in it. I am not a believer, but find find a number of faults with your logic.

1) Many Christians and people of other religions do accept the LGBT community.

2) There is a significant percentage of non believers who do not accept the LGBT community.

3) Most educated theologians do not take the Bible or any other religious text literally.

The premise of this post is that there are religious people and religious institutions that do not preach hatred of the LGBTcommunity and are instead about love and acceptance. As you point out, the Bible does have many contradictions. As others have pointed out, some cherry pick what they want oot of this and other religious texts. As some cherry picking is needed, if one is to arrive at a consistent whole, I encourage people to cherry pick the parts about love, acceptance, not judging others and treating your neighbor as you would have them treat you.

As this post is about finding acceptance of diversity and love in religious communities, I feel that we who are non religious should practice the same and not be prejudiced toward those who believe in God and that some religious text is his/her/its word. We all share a fragile ecosystem called Earth and we would be much more successful in our stewardship of this unique planet, if all of us, both religious and non believers learn to accept others for who they are and find reasons to love each of our brothers and sisters.

Please, let's put aside the hatred and bigotry of the past and move toward what could be a bright future for humankind and our planet where we each celebrate the diversity and richness of every culture and member of the world community. Yes, I know some would call this a dream, but such religious people as Martin Luther King had this dream as did non religious people like John Lennon. I ask for each of you who believe in their dream to embrace the strategy of such people and Gandhi and Mandela as well as you can and work on finding ways to make peace and love.

If we each work to improve ourselves bit by bit to being more loving and accepting of others and helping and advocating for those in need, then we'll be doing our part toward making this world a better place. We only have control of ourselves and the best way for each of us to lead is by example.

Andrew's is a well reasoned response and consistent with Christian values.

I am finishing up a book that will interest you all; a novel, The Shack by Wm Young.  It is in novel form because as an academic and theological treatise it would have been rejected.  As it is, it is turning heads to introspection about the real love of God.  After the first 100 pages it consists of a man's conversations with God, who's young daughter was murdered by a pervert.  What ensues is a reaffirmation of God's love of all his creation and humanity,  reconciliation, love and care of all of humanity.  Well worth the healing read...for all of faith and doubt.  It takes the reader beyond the great hump of judgmentalism.

Judging by the various ways that people use the Bible to justify their beliefs and actions, it seems plain to me that the Bible can be used either as an inspiration to help and love others or as a justification for bigotry, hatred and persecution of those who are different. Thus, I feel that most impartial scholars of the Bible would say the Bible isn't about beating LGBT people up. So, I wish that those who have a problem with LGBT people would just state what it is, rather than using the Bible or "God" as an excuse for your behavior.

Andrew!!!  THANK YOU so much for saying again what I have reiterated for years.  Too many use God, God's Word (and it is not inerrant!), and anything Godly, as a weapon to force or coerce a person into believing as they do.  This is not smart; in fact, reverse psychology usually kicks in and the perpetrator has already lost the battle.
Blessings, Peace, Hope, Joy,

Dakotahgeo! M.Div. Pastor/Chaplain

In response to Rev. Judy Tergis (where is your post??), it has always been my contention that were Jesus to return in the midst of a gathering of christian extremists, he might luck out and last 3 weeks; when they finally figured out who Jesus was, I figger 3 hours at the most!  We haven't moved very far, have we?  Ugh! (Shivers upon shivers!!!)

Pastor Dak!

The tricky thing about the posts in these discussions Dak is that responses to other posts appear below that post and not in chronological order. That drove me a bit crazy at first and is definitely a hassle regarding a discussion such as this where there are well over 100 posts.

In any case, I'm always amazed how different people reading the same religious text, be it the Old Testament, New Testament, Koran, Vedas or Sutras can come up with so many different interpretations. This is why I prefer to use logic in any of my arguments, rather that justifying my viewpoint by some quote, religious or not.

I also believe that when one is unsure, it's best to err on the side of acceptance, compassion and love.