Obama said in his campaign that "Marriage is between a man and a woman", so this situation is not surprising.

To fufill the obligations of the ever evolving concept of civil rights, which includes LGBT rights, the recognition of same-sex marriage is required. As well, since President Obama believes in liberal progress, he should more readily support his own church and religious leaders who are tolerate of the LGBT community. Unfortunately, some of the religious leaders he's spoken to are very intolerant of LGBT people and should be more ignored than acknowledged by President Obama.

Every first-term president begins campaigning for his second term the day after the inauguration. Obama is no different. If he must pander to the Evengelicals, the Catholics, the Jews, the Baptists, the Muslims, the Hindus, or any religion he will.

This is not the change we wanted, but it is the change I expected. If Reverend Manning could produce votes for him, I think Obama would go to Harlem and talk to him. LGBT people are not at the core of Obama's politics, so why should he recognize them. Chicago politics and LGBT policies do not mesh well and Obama wants the machine to continue to support him or he will be another Jimmy Carter; gone in 4 years.

... all good comments. 
Especially, "I have the impression that in a passive aggressive way, Barack Obama does not easily forgive betrayals."  Of course not, this is a man who was abandoned by his father, the worst betrayal of all.................
and.."Every first-term president begins campaigning for his second term the day after the inauguration."..........

Se We are just one of many fringe groups out here on our own again. We need to just join and participate in our communties until they acknowledge gay families really are not different. And to develop as much political power as possible. More $$$ to Victory Fund. .....  and follow the pathof Anthony Niedwiecki, who went from 'being threatened with death' over an airport loudspeaker in 2007... to having successfully run for city commissioner and will become Mayor of his Florida town.  The modern H. Milk.

No, you are not a fringe group (and I use the word "you" because I'm not gay--at least I don't think I am). Marriage should be defined as a legal and spiritual union between two consenting adults who are not married to anyone else.

Sexuality is determined by myriad factors--anatomy, physiology, genetics, psychology, and society--that it should not be judged superficially.

I understand these religious leaders have to keep some controversy brewing, perhaps they believe they wil receive more monetary support that way.  But the truth of the matter is they can not say God would approve of this or that and it should not be their business to judge anything.  We were commanded to LOVE.  To Love God and to Love another person as we love ourself.  If they were about their Father's business they would be working on getting more LOVE in the world.   They would be focused on true agape love, tolerance and acceptance, not judging others.  We were instructed that judgement is only for God.   Every judgemental thought they have whether about same sex marriage or why someone spoke unkindly to them, only serves to hamper their spiritual growth.  I know I am simple minded.  But we live in America where all peole are believed to be equal and deserve the same rights to pursue happiness.  We are not giving these rights to all people. WE are in violation of our core beliefs.  The religious aspect is not the governments concern.  AND it should not be anyone's concern because we should not judge.  God decides what is right and He clearly says to show Love is Right.
What would Jesus do?  He would show love and compassion and not condemnation.
People really make me shake my head tsk! tsk! tsk !
Let us do all we can to encourage others to cultivate love of themselves and love of others.  These poor religious leaders, they must not love themselves or they would already know that to not accept LGBT is to not love themselves.  If you do it to others you do it to yourself.   It is really so simple .  These people hate themselves so much they must act it out on someone.   How can we get them to love themselves ?

Michael, I always appreciate your smart commentary.  Thank you for this one.  

I am really becoming disenchanted with Obama.  I was perfectly willing to be patient on LGBT issues, because I knew Obama has a lot of priorities to balance.  But I am running out of patience because to me, it looks like he is actively dissing the LGBT community.   

First the Warren selection.  That was a gratuitous insult.  Nevertheless, I could forgive him that if he learned from it and did something productive for us.  But then Obama reneged on his promise with faith-based initiatives.  That was alarming.  Now he can't even find one pro-gay marriage clergyperson (or one woman, for that matter) to be among his spiritual advisors.  That sends a message of exclusion to our community. 

Obama talks a good game, but his actions are sending a different message.  Obama said he would be a "fierce" advocate for LGBT rights, but I am beginning to wonder if his intention is to sacrifice LGBTs to make common cause with the evangelical types.  

I understand the need to make political compromises on policy.  I do not see the need to go out of your way to take gratuitous swipes at one of your core constituencies.  Especially when we are dealing with people's civil rights. 

Well, I'm reserving judgment for a little while longer.  I want to see what he does with the federal benefits for gay spouses situation that he is being confronted with.  If he fudges there, then he will have completely lost me. 

The only silver lining is that although the evangelicals still seem to have their homophobic facade up on gay rights,  there appears to be a lot of weakness within.  Some prominent evangelicals now claim to be for non-discrimination in employment, but not marriage or civil unions.  Others claim to be for civil unions, but not marriage.  There was even one not long ago who looked like he was going whole hog for gay marriage.  There is dissension and confusion in the evangelical ranks right now, and that is good.

As a member of the LGBT community I for one am extremely disappointed in Obama at this point, as he fails on LGBT issues.

I supported him in the primary and reached out to others in the community to support him (over Clinton) as well as donated the max (I'm not saying that he "owes" me anything persoanlly, but I do intend to hold him to his campaign promises to the LGBT community). I did this not only in the primary, but also the general because many within the community were skeptical.

When he decided to have Rick Warren perform the invocation, that is when he lost me.

I have vowed to myself that I will no longer support ANY candidate, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green, etc. that doesn't support FULL EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW for ALL of the citizens of this nation. And NONE of this separate but equal BS.

The problem that I have is we as a species EVOLVE, but in this case, Obama has DEVOLVED. He has either devolved (once being unequivocally in favor of our full equal rights), he has no spine to stand up for what he believes, or he believes that he can dismiss any group of people (LGBT) or individuals (Rev. Wright) for political expediency. No matter what the reason, he has shown to me to be nothing more than a "politician".

People may see this as a "you are either for us or you are against us" argument, well guess what? Damn right! You either support equality for ALL of our nations citizens, or you don't. It truly is that simple.

We must have faith in ourselves not in politicians!

As a people who have suffered for hundreds of years, tortured, murdered, tormented, defamed, brutalized, assassinated, and accused for all the world's ills, we have only shown our enemies kindness in hope that they will see us as equal. For hundreds of years we have failed, and we must stop failing, by no longer asking, but DEMANDING our equal rights, our equal protections, and the respect we deserve!

We have a new president who now sides himself with the opposition when it comes to granting us full equality. We have elected him for hope that a change will come. My fellow LGBT I assure you, with those the Barak Obama has sided himself with, there will be no change. For those who place faith in a politician let me give you a word of the wise from a friend of mine who's is a law professor at Wayne state, "Trust a politician as far as you can shit, which has a distance of zero meters. That should tell you how much faith you should put in him or her."

Just because Obama supported us back then doesn't mean his mind can't change. Take Francis Collins for example. Raised an atheist, made fun of religion, then became infected with it and although he does great work for the human genome project, and supports LGBT people 100%, his work is becoming scrutinized by other scientist because of his widely, and ever changing religious views. His book, language of god, is great but is more on the lines of an opinion/nonfiction rather than a scientific document.

Basically Obama's views on us have change. Get over it. I knew they changed as soon as he dumped Rev. J. Wright, who is inclusive to LGBT and same sex marriage. http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/03/rev-jeremiah-wr.html  

Look who he is with.

We have to get over the fact of putting faith in a bigot, will change him back or even change him at all. He is no better than any other president, and he will "NOT" give us our full equal rights unless we demand them and show that we are a threat. Otherwise we can expect more policies like DOMO, and DADT.

We have to get over the fact that he "was" for same sex marriage. He certainly no longer is and we need to stop having faith in his past. If he was such a supporter he would have done far more in stopping prop 8 in CA, Prop 102 in AZ, and Prop 2 in FL, and the horrendous Arkansas Unmarried Adoption Ban which has stripped dozens of children from their loving same sex parents, but he didn't. He only "willy-nilly" said he disagreed with the ballot measures.

And if you don't believe me on children being removed from their home them just read this post by CBN.
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/510350.aspx

If our new president was anything of a human being and not a bigot he would step in immediately and bring these loving families together. He has not; in fact he hasn't even made a comment since the elections. It's pathetic but its reality.

We must no longer stand for this. If you will not move to a country that is supportive of us then its time we fight back. We must stop asking these bigots politely for our rights. It is time we DEMAND them, and if they wish to fight us, separate us, murder us, on degrade us, then let us give them a fight they that will make them cower like the dogs they are. We must stop being pacifist, we MUST become activist who wont settle for anything less. We shall not ask our new president to give us our rights, we must make him. Anything less than equal is unequal, and its time we fight for what is rightfully ours; our rights for our love, our commitment to one another, and our families.

It is our duty and responsibility to secure not only ourselves but the future for other LGBT people in this country. Despite a majority disliking us it is time we rise above and make them respect us. Whether through fear, or love, it is our responsibility to make the change, because our president will not. And for all those out there who worry about this let us quote our Declaration of Independence for guidance.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

Haven't we suffered enough? Hasn't our families and our children suffered enough? It's time we stop this vicious cycle of lies and lay the ground work so no other religion can trample the rights of others based on their bigoted interpretation of their fictitious and irrational ideologies to supplement their destructive agenda.

The time is now that we stop asking and start DEMANDING! Are you with me?  

I don't know but, don't you think that he might be trying to convince those religious figures that everyone has a right to marriage? I don't want to judge to quickly.

DEO GRATIAS - Finally, amongst all the gentrified triangular kumbaya incrementalist cocktail-sipping A set, there seems to be some REAL IN-YOUR-FACE ACTIVISTS who DEMAND and not merely request their civil and human rights.

Obama has 58 to 59 seats in the Senate. Why in HELL do the Blue Dogs and DINO's insist upon a supermajority to pass anything? Obama has an 80 seat majority in the House. Why do their Blue Dogs and DINO's insist on giving the GOP a "coalition government" so that they can destroy progressive legislation?

Obama has signaled to the Right Wing and to the Right Wing Black Community that he is THEIR man and will do absolutely nothing to offend them. He actually told a WH conference with the business community that the " the bleeding heart liberals have to understand that his administration is on THEIR side."

Let me predict. I have been a political activist for FOUR DECADES. Watch this. Obama will lose seats in the House in 2010 and actually some seats in the Senate. Obama will need us for 2012 and tell us that he would love to pass a FMRA and end DOMA and DADT, but he just doesn't have the votes to pass them. If he wins re-election, which is usually a given for an incumbent with a few exceptions, like Carter or Bush 41, his triangulation will make him a GOP enabler with more real GOP elected to Congress.

NOW.....IT IS OUR FAULT TOO !!! POLITICIANS ONLY LISTEN WHEN THEIR BACKS ARE AGAINST THE WALL..ACT UP PROVED THAT IN SPADES !!!! POLITICIANS DO NOT LISTEN TO PLEASE, I BEG YOU.....BUT RATHER.....DO IT YOU SOB OR WE WILL WORK DAY AND NIGHT FOR YOUR DEFEAT.

Good post.

I for one, am not surprised by Obama's behavior. I know he has been sung as the great hero by progressives, and I grant that he has made some moves in the right direction, but I don't see him as supporting same sex marriage. I also think he will back off on other issues. Perhaps putting Rick Warren as the minister at the inaguaration was a move of pragmatism, but I found it personally offensive. Obama will never go as far as Bush in supporting the stupidity of a anti gay marriage amendment, but his friendship to gay rights will remain within boundaries that the status quo demands. I thank you for this post, as it addresses Obama's inconsistencies--this has bothered me for a long time.

It concerns me that, so many have to cope with all sort of dis – ease.

 It is interesting that science and medicine do not have a fast and effective method, through which, one can eradicate self of what ails the Human Being.

 Our reliance on external mediums, to facilitate, wellness, wholeness and in about us does not seem to work.  Could it be that the answers to this dilemma, lies in some other medium that is not yet discovered?

 There is a new book in the marketplace, that addresses Humanity in the context to who we truly are, it takes the reader back to the basics, and brilliantly facilitates, a new awareness of the creative abilities and powers available to them, to effect the changes that one desires on any level, in-spite of.

 The book:  ABSOLUTE PROSPERITY MY DIVINE HERITAGE:

ISBN: 142513664-8, ISBN: 978-44251-3664-2.

I am sure that it can be purchased online at, Amazon.com and other locations worldwide.

Please read it yourself, I am sure that you will agree, that, it is imperative for everyone to read this book.  It is time that we put into effect the real and permanent changes, that we desire for ourselves, and stop the bellyaching.

As some of you have mentioned, Christians are to love and not judge. However, there is still right and wrong. Just as much as homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God so is fornication. The reasons behind this are because it leads to disease and mental/emotional hardship just to name a few. Folks, we really need to be principled in everything we do. If we continue to allow our traditional family unit erode we are in serious trouble, much worse than any we have seen.

I am not gay but I worked for a decade in a business origanization that had a numkber of gay people and the senior manager was gay and turned out to be one of the best friends I have had in my adult life.

The one thingf that I discovered over that decade is that gay people do not just suddenly decide one day they want to be gay. Instead they are hard wired from birth to a life of being gay. Many of them would be otrherwisew if their was a pill ore other medication that would make them like everyone else. That is what the evangelical christians and others do not understand because they have never been in an environment where gays were able to speak openly about their sexual identify. and not be osterisewd.

They suffer socially their entire lives because of this genitic defect. The Sedish medical community has published research on this issue

I am just so disappointed to hear this. I strongly support President Obama, but I support separation of church and state even more. I don't understand what is going on with this and this approach or whatever is going on is really bothering me. I don't try to tell anyone what to believe, but I don't want to be told either and I don't want to be governed by religion!

Carrie points to a key issue: why does marriage have to be defined by clergy and other representatives of a monotheistic belief? Marriage is about 2 people managing to stay together through thick and thin; it is also about financial and emotional security thoughout a lifetime. If one person makes a commitment to another in a romantic relationship, that can constitute a binding contract--why not just recognize it as marriage so that both partners can legally reap the benefits of such a union? Who does it hurt? Why would God care? Doesn't he have better things to worry about? There is nothing wrong taking place when two people love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. I see the God issue as moot, and I do believe in God. But  some of the evangelicals that are now Obama's advisors support a vision of God that I cannot stomach---I think God makes people the way they are--gay or straight, so I cannot see why gay marriage always has to fall under some religious umbrella.  I am not trying to dig up a hornets nest here, but I really think God is just fine with same sex unions. And I am glad to see that there are clergy who support this view.
Obama has been treading water when it comes to gay rights, and shame on him if he doesn't come through. The gay marriage amendment was a sham by Bush to keep people away from other issues--the two wars, the gradual erosion of American civil liberties and the constant legal wrangling that took away rights from the poor. It was a hotbed, guaranteed to galvanize Bush's base and get others all emotional about a smokescreen while REAL PROBLEMS (6 years in Iraq?) were going on. 
Let's be governed by reason, and not by religion, as Carrie put it. If Obama does not further the cause of gay rights, it will show us the cynicism of his "change" agenda. I for one, will not fund another Obama campaign, if I don't see some real CHANGE on this issue.

I honestly don't trust Obama to give us marriage rights. Maybe he will but I just don't trust the man at all.

Obama is very inconsistant, and that why I have never been able to trust him.

-Connor

Obama is a Christian, what more can I say, religion will always retard true growth when it comes to the rights of Gays. 
Moderate and Liberal Christians tacit approval and tolerance of the religious right means this country will never grow up. 
By the way, when are we going to have political leaders NOT worshipping and relying on a make believe god/s for alleged guidance; it’s the 21rst C for crying out loud !  

If that last comment made any sense. Please excuse my wording if confusing.

Darren,

AMEN. LOL--nothing in the constitution supports this sham of religious faith that every politician feels duty bound to show. Even the representative in charge of the city budget in one city in Delaware, said: "I pray that I make good choices in changing the budget." I had to laugh at that one. He is about to cut programs--it's great that he prays about it, but why do we have to hear about it?

Very annoying.  I think Obama's version of Christianity may be a factor in his decisions of gay rights, along with the fact that he just may have been lying as he wants reelection. Many people are plain bigots when it comes to homosexuality! And the religious right have a lot of money--that comes in handy around election time, even in the 2010 Congress elections where Republicans are hoping for a big win.

Darren - do you feel better after that universal and specific ad hominem to gay affirming Christians? I hope so. It is not the first time that gay men and women - raised and rejected by their faith system - have returned the favour in spades.

The problem is that the Right Wing Religionists are many things...but followers of Jesus Christ is a stretch that I and many others, will never accept.

I am also a secular citizen of the United States. I also believe and argue for my full and equal human rights as a citizen of this country who should receive same-sex marriage, not only in MA on the state level, but like GLAD is now fighting, the end of DOMA and the right to federal protections under law.

It is interesting, as an aside, that it is usually those raised in Catholic homes....(hi Susan ) or in Southern Baptist or fundy homes....who are the most virulent in their universal condemnation of spirituality in any manifestation.

Raymond,

I actually believe in God and follow a spiritual path. I only get annoyed when people wear it on their sleeve for personal gain or use it as an excuse to hurt people. That was my point with the politicians and the gay bashing of some evangelical movements--in the former, they are courting an image that to me just isn't neccesary; in the latter, they are projecting their own fears by sending gays to hell--that isn't how I see God. I think we are in agreement here, so I won't go further, but the anti-gay rhetoric of some Bible thumpers is out of context as one writer, Paul, seemed to be expounding upon his beliefs in his epistles. In the Old Testament, the argument is more complex, but it had to do with the Hebrews living a separate existance from paganism as they believed in a monotheistic God.  It is interesting that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality--even in the Gnostic gospels. Maybe he didn't care. And if Jesus found better things to discuss, then I wish some (not all as I know there are sincere Christians who are not homophobic, and Christians who are openly gay)of his followers would look at what Jesus DID care about and then attempt to do likewise.

Darren Ackerely - Your ad hominems aside, I have met many atheist and agnostic and humanist gays and lesbians with whom we share respect and love for one another.

In speaking to their belief systems, as I do mine, we do not speak to whom we disagree with, but the tenets that we agree or share in common. We discuss our differences with respect and with charity.

Your unaware and uninformed diatribe does not speak to what you believe, but rather, what you despise in the faith of others. You AND that, is sad, very sad indeed !!!!

This is a brilliant article. Many people in this nation are fed up with public-policy shaping religious leaders. Pastor Rick Warren and Pastor Rod Parsley are scumbags but with different Party affiliations. I don't care if Obama believes in Santa Claus or any other absurd, plagiarized myth. However it is so inadvisable to connect with theocratic, bigoted, mullahs who not only blend church with state, but also perpetrate the kinds of intolerance and ignorance that has severely harmed the nation for so many decades. Rev. Bookburn - Radio Volta

You will ALL Yell at me.......BUT.....
This QUEER and STR8 issue is always confusing.

"I wish the entire world was bisexual - then the gender BS could be thrown completely out the window."

Dave,
I think it almost has to become part of the separation of church and state issue at this point. It is the only way you can gain momentum to fight on some sort of rational ground that people will listen to and get these religious fanaticos off their pulpits about denying gay rights. Well, that's my thought anyway.

Re-posting to add to bottom of thread:
---------------------------------------------------------


Susan Bertolino said:  "I think God makes people the way they are--gay or straight, so I cannot see why gay marriage always has to fall under some religious umbrella.  I am not trying to dig up a hornets nest here, but I really think God is just fine with same sex unions."

I am forever fascinated by people who believe in "God" - I must presume biblegod in your case - and then believe they can read the mind of said deity based upon their personal sensibilities.  

If you think that your deity made gays and lesbians exactly the way they are, then you must also accept that it made everyone else the way they are as well, including nasty evangelicals who fear and hate gays and lesbians. 

Given this reality, I find it hard to think that you could muster up the fortitude to find fault with ANYTHING in this world given that it is the result of your deity's creation.  Why bother thinking about it or what you think your deity thinks?   Of course it's happy with everything it beholds - it created all of it!

Which really means that your deity created gays and lesbians, among other things, in order that hatred might foment and grow in the hearts of the people whose hearts he made to hate.  Get it?

If the bible is genuine, we're all fucked, every last one of us, because there ain't nothing any of us can do to change the world or ourselves.  We are all nothing more than pathetic and helpless pawns in biblegod's warped game of chess.


As for marriage falling under a religious umbrella, it does so because it has its origins in religion.  Think about what marriage is supposed to mean and why we must make "vows" in order to be recognized by both the state and the church as married.



Stepping out from under the religious discussion for a moment, I think people should instead be asking why marriage at all, and what business does the goverment have deciding who has what rights in relation to others, period.  Isn't is a violation of separation when the government recognizes a religious institution like marriage?



And why should the government grant, or not, divorces?  Why do vows between two people become a legal matter at all?  If you want to make a vow to someone, and either keep it or later break it, so fucking what?  I don't care what other people say to each other, or promise.  It's not my business, it's not yours, it's not the government's - it's theirs.  Let them work out their issues and problems between themselves, but keep the fucking government out of it!!! 



I understand property rights, and all that crap, but why not just have lawyers draft up agreements between two people that can be amended as their lives change, like a living document.  But as for the government recognizing or dissolving a spoken vow, it's insanity, and people should be recognizing this.  It's only because people have been so indoctrinated into, yes, the religious culture of marital institutions that they have yet to ask these very essential questions.    


How about we all just live together, and if someone wants to afford another person some private rights with regards to decisions over their life in medical situations, then let them do it.  But why does a vow, recognized by the government and some church, have to play into these life situations and decisions?


Unless, of course, someone is fool enough to want a church to structure their lives and make these decisions for them, that's still their business and their choice.  Where does the government fit in here?

Bishop - I have twice now read your accusation of ad hominen attacks by Darren Ackerley, and I've read through his posts several times, not once finding any such attacks.  Methinks you're having a hard time addressing his actual points of fact.  Face it, you're over a barrel if you want to discuss religion and homosexuality in terms of acceptance.  There is absolutely nothing within the bible that supports your assertions that the deity you believe in loves you as a homosexual.  Quite the opposite.

By Darren pointing that out, he is not attacking you, but rather, pointing out the obvious, which you simply refuse to believe, and so you twist the bible to suit your needs.  You can't have it both ways.  If you choose to believe what the bible says, then you simply must believe what the bible says.  Don't like what it says about homosexuals?  Tough!

Either reject the bible in its entirety, or accept it and reject your own essence.  But stop making excuses for the bible and attempting to make it say something it does not.

The obvious next question for me is simple - why on earth do self-respecting women and homosexuals believe in a religion that shits all over them?  I'm  not gay, I just happen to be in the underclass of woman (thanks to religions), and I find the bible and xtianity (and all Abrahamic faiths) to be obscene in their treatment of women.  Homosexuals get some honorable mention, but women are abhorred by the god of the bible and throughout its pages, and unless you're a self-hating woman (or gay), I cannot find any plausible reason that these two classes of people would so readily subscribe to such deplorable condemnation.

The only option available to anyone needing to believe in this claptrap is to change the meaning to such an extent that it no longer even resembles what it originally said.  Liberal and moderate xtians do just this, so why not admit that it is YOU who are not the true xtians, and admit that you have instead created another religion BASED on xtianity. 


I see nothing wrong with admitting this since the early xtians did exactly the same thing in order to create their religion - they borrowed from paganism and plagiarized earlier religions.  Your only problem is that you continue to call is xtianity, when you should be honest about it and name it something else.

You said to Darren:  "Your unaware and uninformed diatribe does not speak to what you believe, but rather, what you despise in the faith of others. You AND that, is sad, very sad indeed !!!!"

He is certainly not unaware, and especially not uninformed - he clearly knows and understands what the bible says better than you do.  And, at a minimum, he's honest about what it says, and doesn't apologize for that honesty.  That's a lot different than making a diabtribe.  

However, by exposing your intellectual dishonesty and the irony of your beliefs, he is indeed speaking to what he believes - that your religion is an abomination, and your excuses for it even worse.  He is not required in this context to talk about his other personal beliefs because they are not relevant here.  That is simply you trying to find a way to squirm out of addressing his very valid points about your xtian apologism.

I'm sure you will attack me in the same manner, even though you pretend it is others who are doing the attacking, and I'm fine with that.  All I ask is that you address the actual points being made.  Talk about what the bible actually says, not what you want it to say, and if you can't address it in any other way than to re-write it, then admit that you are doing this. 

Whenever someone starts and ends a response with "LOL," it's a given that the author is attempting two things simultaneously:  1) to dismiss and thus minimize another person's argument by pretending same has not bothered them in some way, and 2) to avoid addressing the issues raised.  Your pretend mirth does not fool or dissuade me.      

Nowhere did I indicate in either of my posts that I was opposed to human and civil rights, or same-sex marriage if that is what someone desires.  For the record, I also strongly support non-human animal rights.  Read slowly as I spell this out for you - I support gay rights, women's rights, men's rights, children's rights, the right to health care for all, labor laws, etc.  I am not your enemy - xtianity is.  If you had a critical eye, rather than an indoctrinated and biased one, you'd know and understand this.     

However, what I DID state, something you either ignored or couldn't understand, is that your position as a xtian is inconsistent with YOUR pursuit of the very ideals you espouse.  The bible, the foundation of your "faith," actually makes for one of the best guides possible on how to deny people not just their civil liberties, but how to rob them of their dignity, casting ALL people in the dark light of unrelenting "sin."  Your book of faith is a vile collection of revised accounts of earlier human history, replete with egregious and capricious acts of violence.  It is a collection of writings from men who themselves were completely ignorant of even the most basic understanding of the cosmos, yet still revered, IN THE 21st CENTURY for fuck's sake and all despite how much more we know now than then, for their presumed sage and wise knowledge of ethics and the human spirit.        


Follow the bouncing ball as I illustrate for you once more how your bible and your faith in it have done more to rob you of that which you seek - equality and justice.  Homosexuals are an abomination! How do I know this?  For the bible tells me so, that's how.  I ain't making this shit up, and you know this, yet you not only continue to believe that your book and your faith is sacred and untouchable, you, as a bishop, are guilty of perpetuating the xtian mythology that helped to form this xtian nation of ours that hates people like you so much.  You might as well have taken a knife and cut your own heart out, that's how incredibly stupid your continued faith in this religion is.  It doesn't give a damn about you, no matter how much you dress it up to look like a happy, shiny Christmas tree with presents all around.     

I have asked one question of you, a question you have refused to answer, so I will ask it again, and I care not to hear what you have to say about anything else.  Please just answer this one question.  HOW do you reconcile your abiding faith in, and love for, a deity that condemns you as a homosexual and demands contempt for you?  

p.s.  As a homosexual, you are not the only class of people in our society that have been wronged and damaged by xtianity. You have also ignored my issue with the treatment of women in the bible, a treatment that is far more pervasive throughout the bible than is the condemnation of homosexuality.  If you can't answer my question about the latter, perhaps you would at least care to address the misogyny of your beloved deity, and how you come to terms with this as well.

Ms. Warfel - first of all, it is clear that your Christian background was fundamentalist, bible-centered and Protestant.

Secondly, I wrote clearly and succinctly about my faith and how it differs from the Right Wing Religionists. My profile suggests that we are "poster boys" - my spouse of 33 years and our son - that my gay bona fides needs no further explanation or description.

Thirdly, your faith seems to be " I hate Christianity and Christians because they hate lesbians and gays." You have the right to your own faith system....whether it confirms what you believe about love of others or respect for other beliefs.

You reject gay affirming Christians - and we exist. One of the first strong GAY RIGHTS movements were Metropolitan Community Church in 1968 with twelve women and men, and has grown worldwide. DIGNITY, INTEGRITY, AFFIRMATION and many other mainline Church LGBT organizations still exist.

Ms. Farfel - I abhor Patriarchalism....and find that our embrace of women bishops, priests and deacons was an important step to correct it. I say this regardless of the fact that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have isolated us to the woodshed.

Yet, you seem to forget the strong women of both Hebrew Scripture and the New Testament. You are obviously Protestant, and are not aware and sufficiently informed about the many women who promoted the faith throughout the world, from the moment that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb.....while the Apostles were scared and shivering in a small cubicle.

Your last question addresses more a phobia or hatred of theism than it does the query of the atheist. I met the late Sir Bertrand Russell while an undergraduate at Yale. I respected his humanism and his respect for theists. I have since met many gay agnostics and atheists who have been deeply hurt by the homophobes and theocrats.

Finally, you ask how I "reconcile my abiding faith in, and love for a deity that CONDEMNS ME AS A HOMOSEXUAL? 

That question is easily answered. It has been answered many times in my responses here and elsewhere. The deaf never hear anything. The " deaf to oppositional views" is something worse.

The answer is simple. The gay affirming Christians understand our faith to support our lives and our commitments. The Buy Bull weaponry of the Right Wing Religionists is not Christianity as I know it.

Why do I know that you will reject anything anyone says in opposition to the pain and angst that you have felt as a persecuted lesbian woman?  I could be surprised.....L      O     L.

The Christian lesbian and gay person, as you realize, must not only confront the Right Wing homophobic religionist, but the many gays and lesbians whose religion is not so much a belief in theism or agnosticism ( although they legitimately exist ) .

In this thread, we are confronted by gays and lesbians whose persecution by the RWR was deeply wounding and created a special and deep animus for gays and lesbians who affirm their Christian, Judaic, or Islamic faith or religion despite it.

We have little change to convince the Right Wing Homophobic Theocrat. There is no doubt that they hate us and work every day to remove civil and human rights from us.

Let me be crystal clear. I respect atheistic and agnostic gays and lesbians. They have a spiritual and secular right to believe what they will. The honest brokers in their camp do NOT condemn theistic gays and lesbians.

Only the "injured former Christian gays and lesbians" feel that way. If others were persecuted beyond repair, then no one should be gay affirming believers. They are to be pitied and further create justifiable anger against those homophobes who always injure our most vulnerable.

You are not a lesbian....and we don't understand your diatribe...and your ad hominems are really verbal bouquets...and oh, I must apologize for a world class education earned on scholarship.....

Why are you such an angry WOMYN?  Pity is the only emotion left that I can feel for you....sad, really sad.

I think that we have said all we can to one another. At least, I no longer wish to engage further.

Well - we have had Mr. and Mrs. Ackerley on the GAY RIGHTS BLOG here only to engage in bashing Roman Catholicism, and the gay affirming Christians who are gay and lesbian.

Oh, and they don't like the GAY AND LESBIAN RODEO ASSOCIATION.

One must not forget that Change.org has many causes, including many others that we all engage in. This GAY RIGHTS blog is extremely sensitive to all forms of homophobia, and the supposed "GOTCHA" - now that I know that those two are married - surprises me not one bit.

Now we gays and lesbians can resume speaking to each other in our community, without trolls out for  "drive by" verbal aggression.

What's with the "we" crap - are you now appointing yourself the voice of all homosexuals?  

Yes, cut and run when you find yourself backed into a corner, and by all means, try all you like to paint me as angry attacker.  My responses have been quite reasoned, and contain no ad hominen attacks, as you well know.  Conversely, you fall back on this same tactic over and over again to obfuscate and avoid the issues being raised.  You tried it with Darren, and now you're trying it with me.  

Can you truly offer up nothing better than this?  What good did that world class education do you if you can't even answer the simplest of questions?

And who said you should apologize for your education?  I simply pointed out that the only reason you would bring something like that into the conversation - out of the blue -  was for the sole purpose of trying to impress and/or intimidate me, with the hope that you would engender some form of increased respect from me, expecting I would believe you possessed a level of credibility theretofore unrecognized by me.  If you hadn't noticed yet, I don't easily intimidate, nor do I subscribe to the societal convention that affords people of the "cloth" automatic and extraordinary deference. 

Enough with the patronizing sadness and pity bullshit already.  You don't feel sad for me, you just hate the fact that you can't win this argument because it is genuinely un-winnable.  You do not have a leg to stand on, and you know it.  

I'm quite certain that you don't have a wish to engage further, and I will accept that as an admission of defeat.  You're not my first, by any stretch of the imagination.

Anathema sit !! The candles are snuffed out.

Chris - I received several messages from our mutual GAY RIGHTS friends on this blog, and we miss your imput.

Are you on spring break? If you are, then have fun and have at it, friend !

If however, you can escape the beach and nightlife, I hope that you can log on and tell us all is well with you.

Love you brother, Raymond.

PS - "The usual suspects" say hello too....ROFL

I think in the interest of all of the folks who read this site, it may be best if folks who want to have individual conversations with one another send private messages. 

I also just want to reiterate that this is a space where everyone should feel free to participate - from animal rights lovers to retired clergy.  We need everyone to make this movement work :)  There's not one voice that is more welcome than others.

Thanks!
-Mike

We might regret getting too impatient with Obama so early on.  This is only his seventy-sixth day in office.  I trust that there is a method to his madness.  Further, I do not want him to telegraph his strategies too soon and give the religious oppressors the advantage of knowing where to head him off with their book of dirty tricks.

I believe Obama WILL pleasantly surprise us all.