Miss dame.

What good is dialogue with those who steadfastly refuse to open their minds and/or change their views ?

In any case, I believe that actions speak louder than words in which case, after all of the actions taken by the fundemental religious groups to deny my fellow americans of equality...They aint got nothing to say that I wanna hear.

A person can have all "opinions" they want. I am free to listen to them and their ideas if I so wish too... However, when their "opinions" contradict the facts, the empirical evidence, and years of hard labored scientific research, that's when I raise my red flag and call them out. When they wont even listen to the facts, to "reality" that is when the mental stability and cognizance of these groups and its "individuals" be put to the same scrutiny as how others view our "lives" (not lifestyles).

Although I believe no human being should have to explain their lives to give that life meaning, to be treated with equal dignity and respect, and to have the same basic rights and freedoms as everyone else; I am willing to explain why my life is equal to indoctrinated that the ilk of James Dobson's Focus On The Family so readily try to convince because "healthy skepticism of religion is deadly to religion. Whereas healthy skepticism of science is what science loves."

The difference between Dobson and his asylum, as compared to us LGBT and our supporters is that he is trying desperately to use fear and damnation to convince people; while we just try to show people that our lives are and should be treated as equal and normal; that integrating us has no impact on their religious lifestyle, their religious marriages, or their individual ideas of life and death.

We are the let live, live free and be happy group. Dobson is the "This is my god's word and all shall follow it as the truth... or else X will happen." With the thousands of variations of religious beliefs out there Dobson's Inquisitionistic mind, it's only a matter of time before his rhetoric becomes so harsh on the ears that his own people tear down the wall of hate that he so happily erected, while he will be left alone and empty.

Mr. marshall.

I agree with all that youve said except for one thing.

Skepticism isnt deadly to religion in and of itself but rather it is deadly to fundemental religion.

Oh but skepticism is deadly to religion. Why? because religion is based off of belief. When you introduce reality into belief guess what happens to those beliefs; they change. Religion might have conclusions but it certainly has no facts. All one needs to do is ask for those facts and then try to validate any sources given to them and the processes to becoming an atheist is not far away.

In some cases with much rational thought they change to understanding that because no evidence supports the following. Therefore why should one waste their time even contemplating ideology when they have a rational, thinking, mind.

Here is another quote from Dawkins. Its better than other assertions I have used.

"There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

This quote is to call out the logic and reason in a person. My disgust for religion stems from its use of belief to impart what it considers to be facts, and what are facts to be considered mere opinions. This is very unhealthy to society and to the world, because such things go against the grain of reality into their own dimension; far outside reality. E.G. calling the Matthew Shepard Act the "Pedophile Protection Act." We have seen and felt what that dimension of thinking has done to LGBT in the past two months let alone our entire struggle for being seem as human beings, let alone being seen as normal.

I wholeheartedly do not hold any respect for religion on any level. With that, the only religious people I respect are those like William Brown who believe that their beliefs are their own and they have no right forcing that belief on anyone else. It is such a shame that people like him seem to be a rarity in this insane world.

Now for others to say that people like us are forcing our beliefs on others, because we want to them look at us as equal and has normal human beings is a misnomer. You cant say the facts, or reality is a belief system like religion. To tell a person the world is shaped like a pair, that it revolves around the sun, and that this planet is 4.6 billion years old is not to force a belief into them. Reality is not molded around or created because of our beliefs. Our beliefs are molded around reality. A person can deny reality all they want. Were they not religious they would be seen as delusional and possibly insane.

The fact that homosexuality is a common natural phenomenon, that poses no harm, is normal, and should be treated on the same level as heterosexuality, like it is in nature, is reality. Anyone thinking outside of that is thinking in belief, and belief or "opinions" have no bearing on reality. For someone to forgo reality and try to use parts of of it to support their anti-reality claims is to prove how unstable they are as individuals. Its afar easier painting a zealot as insane by saying that their opinions are anti-reality, rather than anti-gay.

@Chris Marshall: I am a Christian and have friends of different persuasions, including Atheism. I'm sorry you have met so few of us who not only respect differing beliefs, but enjoy frank discussions on the subject. However, that respect must work both ways in order for those discussions to take place.

You're right. Religion is not about facts. It's about faith and spirituality. And I know this may be amazing to learn (I'm not being sarcastic here), but some of us actually believe in the marriage of faith to science. Real science, not some crackpot stuff made up to work with a rigid, so-called literal interpretation of Genesis chapter 1.

And yes, I believe in (and advocate for) your right to equal protection under the law, and to love and marry whomever you want.

To the subject at hand, a wolf with lots of money in sheep's clothing. But I can still see his teeth.

Mr. marshall.

Your reality may not allow for any spiritual beliefs but mine, however, allows me to not only have faith in the spiritual but also to know the reality of tried and true science with no conflict.

One more thing sir...Your repeated rants against any spiritual beliefs in effect religion leads me to the impression of you being a fundemental atheist which is just as bad as a fundemental religionist.

Well said miss half elven.

Thank you, Mr. McHugh.

Interesting way of looking at me Thomas... A fundamental atheist. That would be an interesting logical fallacy, because in order have fundamentalism you have to believe in something that is outside reality; something that isnt supported by factual data. My rants are from the tiredness of having to deal with the effects and victims of religious and "spiritual" abuse. Should we completely forget about religion? No, I think we should document it and treat it like the mythology it is. Which means get it out of our classrooms, get it out of our tax dollars, get it out of our government and get it out of peoples lives like mine who want nothing to do with it.

By all means I could care less if someone still warships Osiris, Zeus or Mithra; but if someone wants to say that they are creating a bill, an idea or an action in the principles of god, then someone should also apply direct scrutiny to it and call it out. Oh and Thom I applied only sustained scrutiny to faith in general not just your idea of faith.

It is rather interesting that you get so emotional over such a simple thing as putting faith to the test of scientific scrutiny. As for reality I can not speak for all atheist, but to me reality is what has evidence for. You can claim any rationalization you want but if you cant back it up with factual evidence then its not something that interest me. If you want someone to share your beliefs being dissenting because someone questions those beliefs only begs the question: what makes faith and belief so fragile to sustained scrutiny that it has to be supported by either threats or dissenting rhetoric?

Also reading the entire post and not nit picking it seems only fair. For I did more than just scrutinized religion I brought out what people do and explained their use of their faith to as a shield for their efforts. Like when I explained how people use faith to mislabel, downplay and insult the importance of the Matthew Shepard Act; calling it the "pedophile protection act".

I drew out how people mistake having an understanding of reality as some sort belief system like what they have. I made clear that our beliefs are molded around reality not reality molds itself off of our beliefs. I also concluded with the mention that, to point it bluntly, people need to wake up and understand that LGBT are normal, equal human beings, that's the facts. It's time to tell people that if they want to start drawing conclusions on other peoples lives they better base those conclusions on facts and direct observation of not one sample but a continuous supply of samples; not what "tradition," "faith," or the common practice of others dictates, or indoctrinates to them.

I would only see folks switching sides if they were actually stupid enough to buy the snake oil that focus on the family is selling.

True mr. marshall although it is possible to have faith and still be able to think for yourself and question.

Its those who are fundemental in their beliefs that gives religion a bad name.

I concur with you mr. brown.

My thoughts exactly William.

Yes very true about Luke 10:38-42. But the question is how do you use such a passage to crack through the shell of acquired ignorance and arrogance to explain that to those who enjoy using their abrahamic faith or faiths as a justification for violence and oppression?

All too often we hear individuals like Rick Warren and James Dobson call people out, who try to actually understand their faith in the context of the time it was written, as heretics and those who twist the word of god. Even twenty years of sustained barrages from pastors and scribes against Jerry Falwell's principles didn't change his mind that segregation was wrong. No... Too good old Jerry, he was never wrong. God just changed his mind about integration that day and spoke to him in his sleep. He didnt even apologize for the extensively damaging and degrading rhetoric he often spoke with a grin, a giggle, and a wink. He instead made up the claim that integration was all apart of gods plan and that the trials and tribulation he and his putrid ilk put African Americans through was just a test to make them stronger.

What is sad is that I have seen this exact same mindset in pastors who were once anti-LGBT. It is infuriating that they cant even apologise for their mistreatment of LGBT. Why are they so ashamed and afraid of being wrong? That is my beef, if you want to call it that, with these individuals. If they need the holy ghost to speak to them to change their minds then lets give them a small dose lysergic acid diethylamide and see what the results are.

On a final note once Dr. Rev Mel White accepted himself he tried even up until Falwell's death to persuade him with intense reason about the context of the bible. It did nothing. Falwell still called for the denigration of LGBT with his same old evil arrogant smile up until his final days. Perhaps we should not look at faith with disgust equally to those who use faith in such destructive ways, however there is a question that has yet to be answered. Knowing that with our genetics we are predisposition ed to have altruistic traits passed down by our distant ancestors for survival purposes; is it the person, the faith or both that chooses to stray from their genetically wired altruism into a world of bigotry and destructive assertions?

I dont think its ignorance; more or less i think its arrogance. These people know what the facts say and what every major and minor medical association in the world has said about how homosexuality is normal and should be treated no differently than heterosexuality. As stated in my previous post these dellusional individuals are just as much anti-reality, than they are anti-gay.

The fact that they have ignored 600 studies conducted by the APA leads me to know that their article is utter fail.

Mr. Marshall,

I do believe that it is ignorance because they choose not to educate themselves, yet run rampant with their discriminatory behavior. I do agree with the rest of your post however.

if you are correct in your hypothesis then there is hope, however... most of the people I question who hold their ideas of "truths on homosexuality" state the medical facts to my face, when questioned, but then disregard them stating excuses like "scientist dont understand gods word" or "There is proof that these organizations were paid off or bullied into these positioned views by wealthy homosexuals."

Groups like FOTF and NARTH state multiple times on their sites that they believe, with strong conviction, that homosexuals bullied their "sickness" out of the DSM. This might note prove that they know how to read and understand the facts, but it proves that they have at least seen them and that the facts are not foreign to them.

I dont say hope often, because I dont have much, but I do hope your hypothesis is correct and mine is incorrect. Because if that is the case there there is hope to educate them... but even with all the education in this world we still have many sexist, and many racist, even among the wealthy and well educated. Heterosexism is so ingrained into our culture that homosexual people has been stripped of all regard to their humanity.

When I hear our supporters say things like: "I am all for fighting for gay people to get married, however because of my belief i think/feel that homosexuality is X." It doesn't matter what they say, whether positive or negative. Who and what we are has been turned into who we do and what we do. Our sexual orientation, thanks to heterosexism has been turned into a behavior that is disfavored; when the behavior and the person are not two different things; but one in the same.

This is not the case for heterosexuals. To many of them their sexual orientation is not a behavior or a belief, but just a minute part of their existence that is unimportant. When I purposely state the same fallacy of belief that our supporters tend to do, but change homosexual to heterosexual it calls out to their logic and reason; to realize and dismantle their ingrained heterosexism. The easiest way to do this is to help them realize that there is no difference between sexual orientations and affection. Love is love is love. It doesnt matter who you love, but wheather you love and how much you love.

Well said mr. marshall.

Amusing??  Yes, and I might add...AMAZING!!! :-)

I agree that it could be a farce. A lot of people are getting angrier and angrier at religious individuals who walk the same line as FOF. However it is an interesting tactic. If someone like you or me points out their inconsistencies, fallacies, and degrading lies, they could use the conversation to equate all LGBT as hostile to their idea of salvation. Whether you use well versed passages of the bible, or even understand the context of the bible, if you do not consider what they believe to the letter, they choose to ignore the entire conversation or insult your ability to reason. It's such a wonderful system isnt it.

Thank you pastor melby.