I disagree with the Church's response, but it's about time a church take a stand. I applaud their attempt to make a POSITIVE change in this country and limit the gay movement.

How is restricting an entire population's rights, a "positive" change?

When do WE, the voters get to decide what rights YOU are entitled to? Perhaps you would be better suited to live in Iran.

On the contrary, I enjoy my place of residence. Isn't this a country to be run by the people. Don't we determine the leadership of the country, and therefor help determine policy? Isn't the gay (or whatever term you would prefer, I don't intend to insult) population causing change in policy, anyway?

They change in policy is to level the playing field for the entire LGBTQ community. What you are seeking to do is seek special rights for yourself and your religious group. We are a nation of secular laws, not theocratic rule which is precisely what you are seeking to do, turn our republic into a theocracy.

Alex telling a whole population of people, that are mainly christian, that they cannot marry the person they love is stating that their religious values as well as their constitutional rights do not matter over yours. That seems quite selfish don't you think? Since when did your sect of Christianity take precedent over the many others as well as my peoples and their churches that support them?

We dont live in a theocracy, nor do do we live in a country that is mono theocratic. Their are many religions in this country and many support and bless my people being able to marry with in the confines of their religious and also agree that those marriage they preform should be equal in the secular legal realm as well.

Where is respecting those religions and their beliefs that my people should be treated as equals to those lilke you?

Theres nothing positive about bigotry mr. walters and as for the roman catholic church...Fuck them.

If they honestly cared about the poor, the homeless and all else...They never would have said what they did.

I do not support what the Catholic church has done, Thomas. (I'm not Catholic, and I disagree with the Catholic church on many fronts.)

Chris, if they are primarily Christian, do they see any sin in their desires? By no means am I perfect. I'm far from it. And I don't mean to come off as judgemental. I have my own sin as well. But assuming they're Christian, they know full well that in several places (1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13) the Bible (foundation of Christian belief as the Word of God) condems homosexuality? If they are indeed Christian, should they be supporting sinful behavior? Or doing their best to turn from the sin?

To be frank, I respect certain desires of religions (desire for peace, etc.), but I do not support or honor any of them as a whole.

Is it not clear that these secular laws were based upon Christian thoughts and beliefs? Didn't our country have Christian roots in belief and law? Of course people have their right to practice other beliefs, but it is clear where the base lies.

Alex, you really seem to fail in history. Your "10 commandments" were already illegal activities before the Bible was ever written.

Oh and by the way, next time you decide to eat lobster, or shrimp, let me know. I'd like to be present when it is time to stone you to death. Or the next time you go to the grocery store or a restaurant on the "sabbath," or play football (never mind....you don't appear to be the jock type) as all of these are an "abomination" according to your fairy tale.

And in case you missed it, many of our "founding fathers" were NOT Christians. In fact, Thomas Jefferson had this to say about Christianity and law "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." - letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Alex,  you have to look like me, walk like me, comport yourself like me, wear your hair like me, be my ideal dream boat or you don't deserve the right to wear a Kings crown before they get to know you! "Judge not and shan't be judged.  He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Love thy neighbor as you love yourself." Do these words sound familiar? Is that what you are endorsing or being judgemental do you think is a good thing and appearance is everything?

These words are from a man who is believed a man that walk this eaerth long time ago,"Forgive them father for they know not what do. '  do and say I would add to his words, Alex just for people like you! Now I am done I want to watch some mindless TV if I may, Please, pretty please with a cherry on top?

Alex by your logic, then black people should still see themselves as nothing more than slaves according to the passages of Ephesians and Corinthians.

Of course some did way back 200 years ago, but do we follow the passages of Ephesians and Corinthians today when looking for moral support on how to treat or mistreat African American people today? I dont think so. Using your religion to hide behind your bigotry is as good of an excuse as how Hitler hid behind his.

Alex Walters: "Is it not clear that these secular laws were based upon Christian thoughts and beliefs?" Uh, NO. Good god, no, mister! Neo-conservatives and fundamentalists want you to believe this but it is such a huge lie. If this country was so tied to Christian Beliefs wouldn't there have been something in the founding documents that made this clear? There is no mention of God. The word the founders came up with in the one place where it could have been used was a compromise: "endowed by our creator." That's so people who didn't believe in your christian god wouldn't be offended. The most prominent of our founding fathers were anti-clerical and quite vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin. You could never think of Franklin as a bible thumper. Just go to Wikipedia and find that "Some of the 1787 Constitutional Convention delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists. But there WERE NO FUNDAMENTALISTS AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION DEMANDING THAT WE ESTABLISH A CHRISTIAN THEOCRACY! If there had been then things would have definitely turned out quite differently. Let's stop trying to re-write history, OKAY?

Al, I like that you reference Wikipedia as a credible source. lol

And you cite the Bible as a source of authority? Really? Boy you really are brainwashed.

How are these for sources you dumbshit!

http://www.jeffersonbible.com/Home.php

http://earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm

Please, tell us what sources you deem, "acceptable." No doubt you are going to seek out a revisionist historical textbook. You know the type I'm talking about. The ones that continue to say that we found "WMD" in Iraq.

Alex, you do realize that if you REALLY wanted to know if the things he stated were accurate, you could go to the bottom to look at the sources of the articles. But I'm sure that is just way too much work for you.

Dave why has Alex gotten you worked up? He is not what he pretends to be and frankly I think I have heard enough of him, don't you?  Everything he says is negative.  He has nothing positive to say except tries to justify his negativity. 

You were right about stopping the gay movement being positive, how?   He is convinced and nothing you will say to him or her will change a damn thing. 

I agree with Al you are speaking with some other person unless that is his baby picture?  His dictions and his conversations are too narrow minded and if do say myself politically inclined! He not a gay person that is for sure I can't even say he is a priest!

Interesting? Or not: "Alex Walters" has become "A W." And he has removed his picture. He likes that I used Wikipedia as a credible source. FYI It was just the easiest thing to do - I'm not writing a goddamn thesis. I quoted my source and if Alex Walters wanted to check it out and dispute anything there then let them go to it, dig a little to dispute it, if you believe it is inaccurate. 

I sent "Alex Walters" a personal message telling him that he should stop calling himself a conservative because he obviously does not know what it means to be one (like most neo-cons).

He responded: "At least I'm not hiding behind an anonymous online 'identity'. Until you have the balls to speak to me from your true identity, I want nothing to do with you."

And then - after reading my post questioning his identity -he removed his profile altogether. Not that takes balls, am I right?

Funny isn't Al? Got to love the nut balls who cant see reality.

Mario, although you and Al may be correct, that is precisely why I will not back down. I refuse to allow ANYTHING to go unchecked by the reich-wingers. We back down? Guess what, they win. I am one that refuses to allow them to win! Perhaps that is a fault to myself, but it is what it is.

Dave, I totally applaud you. Do not back down and do not ever let anything go unchecked. That's exactly what I try to be about and I think that what we need a whole lot more of in this movement. We all need to learn how to be fierce and fearless. We need to stop worrying about being seen as impertinent by people who hate us, and don't be fooled when they sugarcoat their feelings or back peddle when pressed. Don't stop getting in their faces, never compromise. There IS no compromise with people who oppose same sex marriage. It is just a cover for their opposition to the very legitimacy of LGBT people. We need not prove our legitimacy. We are because we are. And we are only after that to which we are entitled as Citizens of the US. We deserve nothing less than full equality and we will settle for nothing less. Be fierce. Be strong. Don't get wrapped up in their diversionary bullshit bible-based tactics. Just turn them off - they have no relevancy in a Civil Rights discussion. 

That is sad that they won't serve the poor if Gay marriage.That is the lowest thing I have ever heard. No true christian would do that.Everyone is supposed to care for each other even if they are homeless due to bad choices.To feed other people is our responsibility and Food is a genuine need.I watched my friend and potential Steady give his leftover food to someone after we had dinner.Now that is true compassion and love.

Yes it is mr. martinez.

Since when does any organization not discriminate at any level? Are you saying no organization should ever be given funds because they stand by a set of private, moral beliefs?

The problem, Alex, is that the RCC is willing to resort to blackmail to get what it wants. Make sure the faggots can't get married and we'll continue to feed and provide social services for the poor.

As for your comment about stopping the "homosexual movement", the RCC is not going to stop it--nor are all the rest of the homophobes. For too long, we have let the Roman Catholic Church in this country interfere in politics. Now this bunch of morally bankrupt individuals wants to force the city council of Washington, DC to scuttle marriage equality.

For me the Roman Catholic Church has NO moral authority whatsoever. They need to clean up their own house before they say a word to anyone outside the church (uh, are the pedophilia scandals ringing a bell here)?

Alex, ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY that is EXACTLY what I am saying. Why the hell should MY tax dollars be going to an organization that is seeking to exterminate MY community? Would YOU stand for that? For some reason I don't believe you would!

So right to point out that Catholic Charities does not do charity work at all. It contracts with the government to pay them for the "charity" work they do. When you get paid to do something, you are an employee or a contractor, not a charity. The least one can expect from a contractor who receives taxpayers money is that they obey the law. Oh, I forgot. They want "special rights" in addition to the tax-exempt status they get to launder the money they filter into campaigns against gay rights. I only wish they would follow through on their threat so that the money could be funnelled into secular organizations that work with the poor and the homeless.

Alex-

From your photo, I assume you are gay, so why would you support discrimination with taxpayers dollars?

Doesn't make sense!!

I meant their own beliefs. And they aren't perfect, but don't you think other organizations make mistakes as well?

MY tax dollars are most likely supporting abortion shortly. I don't approve of that. No one will be pleased in every facet and desire.

People can be against homosexuality without being homophobic. I would argue the vast majority of people who don't support homosexuality are NOT homophobic.

Good point Jay. I agree with your idea about misidentifying charity work compared to contract work. But the Church still does plenty of charity work.

Norman, you're a classless imposter, hiding behind some new identity to insult without thought. Congrats on failing at life.

You clearly don't quite undertand the abortion vs health care reform issue. Under current law, many businesses who offer their employees health insurance receive a tax break to do so. Most of those insurance policies THROUGH these employers currently pay most if not all of the bill for the abortion procedure. This is current policy and has been for many many years.

You clearly don't understand the term homophobic. Here is the definition in case you didn't know: Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men. The key word here is "OR."

You clearly have contempt for gays and lesbians which therefore throws you into the bracket of being a homophobe. You may not represent the extreme homophobe, but you are a homophobe none the less.

As far as the church doing "charity" work, really? Very little if any of their funding comes from private individuals. All, if not most of their funding comes from taxpayer dollars. THAT is not charity, THAT is contract!

If they are going to be accepting taxpayer dollars, they cannot be prosletyzing to those they are supposedly "helping." And, they cannot discriminate based on anti-discrimination laws throughout the country.

Alex how is calling you gay an insult? For me its more of a compliment since the science confirms that gay relationships and gay parents fair far better than their heterosexual counterparts in terms of relationship stability and child rearing (J. Gottmann PHD, Judith Stacey PHD)

If you were gay and someone called you that I would be happy because they acknowledge that I will have a more stable relationship than the heterosexual calling me that. If you are not gay then for you I would still say be happy because someone associated you with a group of people that are far more scientifically, politically, open,  and rationally minded than the average heterosexual zealot.

So dont worry... be happy. *ques song*

Alex must hate himself and believes he is trash that is why he taken the safe position against HOMOSEXUALITY. No rights!  Take our money, our hearts and souls, and take all that we are and later discard us in the name of charity and GOD!

Alex, it is time for you to stop. Just stop and go away. You add nothing of value to the discussion. You spew ignorance and then try to backtrack and sugar coat your hatred with statements like, "People can be against homosexuality without being homophobic. I would argue the vast majority of people who don't support homosexuality are NOT homophobic." This makes no sense. Homophobia is anti-homosexuality. Are you stupid or are you just trying to be provocative? And as for all the biblical bullshit you tried to inject into the discussion - it's just insulting. It is at best irrelevant. It is tired, lame and meaningless. Stop and go away. Thank you.

Does anyone believe that "Alex Walters" is a real person? The picture is definitely not of the person who is doing the writing. Don't be fooled. There seem to be a number of these apparent decoys popping up on various blogs to engage people in the new Repugnican right wing underhanded tactic of soft-peddling homophobia and hard-core fundamentalism to the younger generation. They are not that hard to spot. Especially the ones who come to the gay blogs claiming they are straight but open minded to one extent or another. They are as devious as any traditional proselytizer who tries to engage you in mind games spouting bullshit scripture, telling you they are not homophobic but they are against the sin of homosexuality, blah, blah, blah... They think they will win over people who are on the fence this way - those who are having a little trouble reconciling their open-mindedness based on real world experience with the sometimes gnawing doubts still brought on by the seething puss of toxic christianity that has not yet been washed away altogether, but is receding and lessening in smaller and smaller pools of hate left from the brainwashing job they survived before breaking the hell away from their domineering churches and families. Right, "Alex?" 

What happened to Alex's picture? 

He probably took it down because he apparently looked straight in it. Lol

Way too many acts of evil are being done in the name of good.

And it seems that most of them are being done by the roman catholic church.

Thanks Martin,

I just wrote a letter to all of my Congress Critters (Susan Davis, Dianne Feinstein, and Barbara Boxer) and will be using snail mail (US Postal Service) to send to Kathleen Sebelius. I'm posting my letter below.

Michael,

I would like a little feedback, please. Do you think I should turn this into a petition here at Change.org?

Just when I think the Roman Catholic Church cannot possibly sink any lower, it surprises me. To hold services to the poorest of the poor is beyond contemptible. Why government tolerates this bullshit is beyond me. Catholic Charities is a bad joke.

The only thing good that may come from this is that people with any sense and decency will recognise this extortion attempt as the RCC showing its true colors. This is exactly what I now expect from a church headed by Ratzi the Nazi. These people are incredible.

Government needs to pull all funds being paid to the RCC and its entities NOW.

Petition away, Dave. I have mixed thoughts on whether legislators would stand up to the Catholic Church, but they should definitely be hearing from us.

Thanks Mike,

Setting it up now :)

Dave...ah here it is. Now I see why it is a 'plain' action. But once you do it the copy of the body of the letter vanishes. You need to post it up in the main body too please.

The petition can be found HERE.

Yeah, thanks. but when you have just signed it vanished so it was hard to quote. Thanks for it.

Thanks Lee, It has now been added so that it can be read after the petition is signed :)

Thanks for that letter. I have sent it (with a few changes) to the entire AZ delegation. As MLK Jr said, a threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

You're welcome Joy, and thank you!

Petition...

Thanks Dave. I have modified the petition slightly and sent it to my Washington State delegation.

Here's my modified version:

First, I want to say thank you for the work you do on behalf of the American people.

I am writing to you because I am saddened, as much as I am angry. I am sure you are well aware by now of the passage of Proposition 8 in California last year and now Question 1 in Maine, but I am not writing to you today regarding these two ballot initiatives. I am writing because our entire government is not only working against the LGBT community, but it is also rewarding organizations that seek to belittle us, dehumanize us, demonize us, and wish to see us exterminated from the face of the Earth. I am talking about the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church continues to fuel hatred toward the LGBT community, yet back in September, according to the Catholic News Agency (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16747), the government rewarded Catholic Charities with a $100,000,000 "disaster relief" contract. This is a form of money laundering that I am tired of paying for via my tax dollars. How is this money laundering? Not only did the Catholic Church pump more than $550,000 into Maine's Question 1 battle, but "Catholic Charities" of Evansville, Indiana also donated to the Yes on Question 1 campaign. In Washington, the archdiocese of Seattle was vocal in its opposition to Referendum 71.

Had the disaster relief contract not been awarded to this discriminatory organization, would they have donated in such large sums? Perhaps they would have, but they would not have been rewarded for their behavior in political campaigns.

The Washington Post is reporting that the Catholic Diocese in Washington D.C. is threatening to discontinue their "charitable" work on behalf of the increasing underprivileged class, including the homeless population, if the city council passes marriage equality (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/11/AR2009111116943.html?nav=hcmodule&sid=ST2009042801406).

What this tells me is that the Catholic Church is willing to allow fellow human beings to die because the Church has a problem with MY family unit. They are clearly neither Christian NOR charitable, yet they demand we "respect" their religious beliefs as they trample on not only my civil rights, but also my religious beliefs. Since when does this country not believe in equality for all?

This brings me back to the contract they received. If they are willing to allow the underprivileged in Washington D.C. to go without their everyday needs, how can we expect them to actually help ANYONE in the LGBT community when a disaster hits. There are growing disasters in the D.C. area, among them are HIV/AIDS, homelessness, joblessness, starvation, etc.

It is one thing to allow this organization to spew hatred from their pulpits and our mountain tops, but it is entirely a different story when the government, that is supposed to work for ALL citizens, enables them by rewarding their discriminatory behavior.

I know this is a long letter and I hope that you have read it in its entirety, because I would like to know if someone will be seeking to strip this contract from these people who think of themselves as Christ-like. I would like a clear and thoughtful response to this letter, and would like to know what is being done to regulate these types of contracts. If this is what we are to expect of charitable organizations, perhaps it is time to consider taxing the profits of religious groups and using the proceeds to fund relief work.

Best Regards,

Nice alteration Michael. I like it.

I'm using this version of the petition. Thanks for doing all the heavy lifting on this!

Amy,

I too have several Catholic friends, probably not so many any longer because I have no qualms telling things the way I see it.

When they tithe to their parish, or to their diocese, they are indeed supporting what the Catholic Church is doing. I'm sure they are loving and compassionate people, but by continuing to support an organization that actively seeks to strip fellow human beings of their rights, who seek to consistently dehumanize, demonize, and in many cases call for the extermination of a specific populace, then they ARE indeed condoning the behavior of that organization. If they are not actively trying to change that organization from the inside, and actually working to change people's hearts and minds, then they are just as guilty as those who are perpetrating the hate in public.

Look no further than the Catholic Church in Maine. They donated over $500,000 to the Yes on 1 campaign. The church! Not the Knights of Columbus. Not Catholic Charities. The CHURCH!  THAT is what your Catholic friends support if they continue to tithe to the church.

Just think about that for a moment. How many mouths could that money have fed? How many people could have been sheltered for that amount? How many parishes could have remained open for that amount?

I know that what I have said may sound harsh and blunt, but it is the absolute truth. If they fill the pews and remain silent, they are no better. They may not vote the way the church tells them to, but continuing to support the organization itself without vocal opposition, is equal to condoning the behavior.

Silence = Death!

I also struggle with wanting to support the extremes of religious freedom while condemning the unscrupulous and hate-filled behavior of many individual churches or denominations. For a religious group to act as a political organization, blatantly mobilizing its members and pouring money into partisan political efforts, is both unscrupulous and an indication that it has been seduced completely by exactly what Jesus warned against, "the cares of the world."

On the subject of the Catholic Church, it's also worth publicizing that the efforts to pass Prop 8 in California, and destroy legalized same sex marriage, began with a Catholic bishop. Suspecting that his own church members would not support his bigotry enthusiastically enough to sway the vote, he reached out to his good personal friend, a Mormon bishop in Salt Lake City. The Mormon Church was thus mobilized as a religious mercenary organization to fight a battle it had no discernable stake in and might not have cared about as much on its own.

It's repetitive to say it, but honestly, is it even possible to be less Christ-like than any of these Church actions?

Anytime a church and a state mix their ambitions and power, both are corrupted.

William, I always love your insight. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupt absolutely!

That is what has happened in this case. The Catholic Church (and many evanglical organizations) have an absolute stranglehold on our once great republic that both have become corrupted. Very sad to say the least.

As you know, my religious beliefs and practice come before my secular one. For me, If I am doing God's will (and I believe I am sincerely trying to live that way), and if he is all powerful (I believe so) and if he has a plan for mankind (I think so), then why would I want to mix my faith with a secular authority? Why would I want to use the power of the state to further my beliefs, when I should be seeking strenght and guidance from God.

Certainly there is a level of involvement to exist in society, but a church should be looking to the kingdom of god, not the US Government (or any other).

If my beliefs are correct about the nature of God and his having a plan, then I have no further need to worry about those who would oppose his will, he has the power and wisdom and understanding to handle those things just fine.

Of course, you may disagree with my beliefs, but if all those who profess similar beliefs would live them, then we wouldn't be having these problems.

William: I am not one of those you are addressing with "As you know..." But if your religious beliefs tell you that your god has a plan and he will handle those who oppose his will (as in being queer or supporting same-sex marriage?) then that sounds fine by me! Sounds like you understand that issues concerning our Civil Rights are beyond the purview of any religion. That's what all religious folks have to realize. As long as you are not using the power of the state to further your beliefs, you are cool with me, dude.

You and all other religiosos may believe that I am going to hell or that god is going to see to it that I a horrible death because of what you see as my "opposing his will." Fine. Whatever.

I strongly believe that when you and your ilk die you may have, at best, a quick flash of abject disappointment learning that none of what you believe is true and then you will simply exist no more forever. But I'm not going to try to impose my beliefs on you and I will not fight against your Civil Rights. Promise. 

Are we good now? 

Spread the word.

Another angle might be, can anyone tell me when the Christ used his LEVERAGE?

WWJB - Who Would Jesus Blackmail?

It aint jesus thats the problem mr. falafool...

Its the idiotic bible thumpers that claim to follow jesus even as they dishonor him by their contemptable acts of evil thats the problem.

I didn't say Jesus was the problem. I agree with you that the problem today is his idiotic bible thumper followers.

Whoever Jesus may have been some 2,000 years ago has no more relevance to the bible thumpers today than it does to me.

I'm not anti-jesus, that would be absurd. How can you be against something so far removed from your own time? By the same token, though, how can you put any amount of faith in something like the idea of Jesus that is so far removed from your own time and mired in 2,000 years of piled-on legend and myth that has been used to justify some of the worst atrocities the world has ever known? 

That being said, if you find inspiration to do good in the Jesus myth then I can respect that. Doesn't matter to me so much what motivates good actions.

People say the Catholic Church should not be forced to obey non-discrimination laws because to do so goes against their beliefs. How absurd. In this country violating nondiscrimination laws does not mean that there is something wrong with the law - it means there is something wrong with the church.

If the Church insists on continuing to discriminate illegally, then they need to be forced into changing. That's what laws do. Laws force us to do things we don't necessarily want to do. It doesn't matter whether our motivation to obey the law is based in our beliefs or not. In obeying non-discrimination laws it doesn't matter if the Catholic Church is motivated by their beliefs or coerced by the force of law. What is important is that they follow the law.

Separation of church and state? That no longer applies across the board - not since they have taken on such a huge role in our society and politics. They still cling to being tax exempt yet they take our tax money from the government by the millions and they interfere in elections and referenda - look who funded the winning sides of Prop 8 and Question 1 - and now they are trying to influence the outcome of DC's decision on same-sex marriage.

The law is the law. No religion is above the law in this country. 

I agree with you mr. falafool and as for how anyone can put their faith in jesus...I cant say because Im wiccan and I prefer to worship the greek pantheon.

I can under some of that sentiment, I am not Christian either. I am a Deist and I do not believe in any of the revealed religions. However people must be able to worship as they like, as long as they don't step on anyone else's civil rights.

To me all of those holy books are products of man. You can find some good stuff in the Bible, however it is buried in all of that genocide and other f-ed up stuff. (If you don't believe me start reading all of the Bible and do it critically.) Things such as: why was Pharoh so severely punished for not releasing the Israelites when God made it impossible? If you read the account, God had hardened his heart so he would refuse. It paints an ugly picture of the creator that deeply offends me.

I can tell you, the figure isn't even close. We have a lot more than 12 million gays and lesbians in the United States.

Dave is it 12 billion? The market is I know wide if there were a cure, I rest my case.  You can't blame anyone for natural events.  What do they expect us to do be unhappy and become liars so they can preserve what? I still don't get it if it's not about the money than keeping up appearance for whom and why?  Not every woman looks or wants to look like Shakira or not every man looks like Marlo Brando or wants to? The Church is basically judging, why, I have no idea what their stupid reason is? If it is based its belief on what they think they understand maybe they need a different interpretation” Love is Love” and should not be questioned because it  comes from an authority higher than IT.

LOL! No it's not billion, considering there are only about 6 billion people total. The figures are most likely somewhere between 400-600 million world wide.

That was suppose be funny! Nevertheless the market is wide enough that if the was cure companies would dive into it if they claim we were a disease!

There is no cure, however that hasn't stopped the Fundamentalist Christians from trying their hardest to fabricate false science and say they developed a cure.

As for the psychologist we at the APA have been screaming our lungs out for the last three years on this issue. Please go to these links and you will find all you need.

http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/article.php?id=31

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/

The APA's response to the so called cure for "the gay"

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/resolution-resp.html

And a little packet for my buddies over at soul force. A religious group that works closely with the APA and other mental health professionals to help LGBT feel welcomed in their religion and within themselves.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-science

http://www.soulforce.org/article/false-focus-family

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible

And if you want to see a real gay family Mario here is a link to my good friends Jay and Bryan and they two amazing children Daniel and Selina. Here is the youtube page.

http://www.youtube.com/user/depfox

Chris, sad to say, Alex and all the other homophobes don't care about the rights of GLBTQ persons or the rights of churches which support us to offer legal marriage. It is so sad because no one in his right mind would want to be married in a church which doesn't accept or support us, thus the argument that churches not approving of homosexuality would be forced to marry same-sex couples is specious. This callous disregard results in nonsense like "Lesbian and gays HAVE rights. They are perfectly free to marry someone of the opposite sex."

Alex, as has been pointed out by others here, despite what the man in the white dress and red Prada shoes would like you to believe, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being gay. It's a natural variation and occurs accross hundreds of species. What IS wrong is to tell people that it is perverted or "intrinsically evil". You want to know what I think is evil? Probably not but here goes: I think it is evil to tell people in Africa not to use condoms, thus exacerbating the AIDS epidemic. I think it is evil for all these Catholic and other clergy to have gotten away with abusing children for all these years. I think it is evil that the local bishops just transferred these people, thus permitting to add to their abuse total. I think it is evil to tell people that the abuse was perpetrated by gay clergy, when the overwhelming percentage of pedophiles are heterosexuals. Pedophilia is about power, not love. To characterise all gay men in this way is evil, and it is a lie--an out-and-out LIE. I think it is evil to say that GLBTQ people are as big a threat as global warming. That's the kind of things I think are evil. And since it came out of the mouth of the Pope, he is evil as well.

However all this evil seems to pale in the face of GLBTQ people and the desire of many of them to marry. I am glad that some of us are opting for love and companionship and not buying the lie that God wants us to live lonely, celibate lives.

Mr. sabbatini...

Why would you want there to be a cure for an innate trait that people are born with ?

Whats so wrong about a sexual orientation different from your own ?

Thats like saying those with an eye color different from yours needs to be cured...

Totaly illogical.

Mr. Martinez, I did not say to find mean to suggest we are a disease that needs to be cured, but if we are considered to be a disease then I think there is enough of a market if money were the issue.  Not everyone chooses acceptable hair color, eye color, short or long legs and ect… so the world likes what they see.   You have got to admit the there are more straight people than there are gay people and out of 6 billion people I’d say that that half of those straight people are not right in the “Head.”

Loan I am sorry but i have to make a correction. There is not hundreds of species that exhibit homosexuality amongst there population. There is not one species of animal, that we have studied, that do not exhibit homosexuality among their populace. Which means all species of animals have been documented to have homosexual beings in their population. That is quite a few. Ranging in the millions I believe.... ouch well that just knocks off the unnatural and not normal arguments doesn't it? LOL.

Alex,

We are talking about love!  Your brother, sister, father and mother to feel hate for themselves!  It should not be an issues it is a given right!

Esther, I had cut ALL ties with my family until this past January when my step-father passed away. I saw my mother for the first time in 17 years. I went to attend my step-father's funeral, out of respect for my mother and the relationship she had with him. She had stated at one point in time that she would NOT attend the funeral of my partner, because it is a "sin" in her eyes....er......her "god's" eyes.

Her husband, a "part-time" minister, requested that "communion" be given during his funeral service. I refused. I was of course the ONLY person in the church that refused communion. I am Agnostic. To me, the idea of a "god" is a fairy tale, why would I partake in a ceremony I believe to be based on a false premise.

After the funeral, I was asked by tons of people why I wouldn't partake. My reply came with two answers given to each of the individuals that asked me that question.

First, I respect my mother and step-father's relationship. I am gay. I am NOT accepted by Christians. And therefore, to do no disrespect to their faith, I will not partake in this part of the ceremony.

Second, I am not a believer. I do NOT believe in "god" and therefore will not partake in something that I do not believe to be factually accurate.

I have had no contact with the rest of my "biological" family since. Much of that has to do with EVERY single one of them voted AGAINST my rights this last November. To me, ALL of them are strangers. NOT one of them are a part of my family. If my own family cannot support me, I refuse to support them. THIS is the ONLY conscious decision I have made regarding my sexual orientation, and I continue to refuse to support my biological family when they refuse to support my basic rights as a human being, let alone a family member.

Good for you Dave for staying true to your beliefs and lifestyle even though you had to cut your ties off with your family. I applaud people like you.

I dont blame ya dave.

I endured 30 years of abuse by my biological "mother" and her family did nothing to stop it although most if not all of them knew what was going on...

My point being that family aint neccessarily family because of blood...How they treat their members is just as important a factor.

Im glad your not a blind follower.

its sad Tom... Its sad that it seems our open-mindedness stems from the religious abuse of Christians... Why does such abuse foster minds out own... That is a question I have yet to discover.

Thats a good question chris but even so, I'd like to think that my father's influence though not extensive due to his untimely death when I was 6, would have caused me to still be the same person I am today...At least as far as what I believe in.

My mother had requested my presence at the funeral. I agreed out of respect for my mother and her relationship with her husband.

The only thing I was seeking to prove is that despite their non-compassion and their non-support of me, I can still support them in their time of need.

You may be right Cynthia but goodness has taken a different form it's called today cruelty. It sounds like the Spanish Empire to me again?  I maybe wrong!!!!!!

http://www.adw.org/contact/default.asp

301-853-4500

What I find interesting is the arrogance of some RCCs such as Alex to assume that the RCC has the right to interfere in politics. I am not surprised because the RCC is far more of a political entity than a church. If they recieve tax dollars then they need to STFU and deal. They are unworthy of the huge sums given them, both in cash and massive tax deducations.

We are dealing with an entity which prefers to close down parishes in order to fund this war against GLBTQ Americans. We are dealing with an entity which prefers to use the threat of suspending social services to the poor rather than see one GLBTQ person have the happiness of marriage.

Alex, there is nothing wrong with GLBTQ people and their only agenda is equality with the rest of the population. You and other homophobes may not like the idea of progress, but progress is and will continue to be made in this and other areas. Get used to it. This is the 21st Century, not the 14th Century when the Church could plunder at will.

Mario to sum up their logic is like trying to "see Russia from" your house if you lived in Alaska.

*partial quote courtesy of the idiocy from Sarah Palin.*

Why Chris am I able to see Russia from NYC better?  I do understand your analogy!  Some people make you wonder how in God's name do they ever find their way home? 

The joke is that they have no logic. Sarah Palin really believed she could see Russia from her house, even though a 20/10 human eye can only see a draw distance of 9.25 miles with the average eye only seeing about seven. She made that analogy on the basis of seeing with her own eyes from her porch, not using satellites or imaging systems. Their logic is not based off of reality, science or even a skewed idea of reality, but a completely separated dimension. In some cases this detention is absolutely void of reason, compassion, and understanding.

we already had one with the Nazi regime, that is where the inverted pink triangle came from. However seeing how HRC continues to refuse to take this to a federal level... I can see this country getting worse with the economic problems and there could be a possibility if this country turns more fundamentalist christian that continental genocide could occur here in the US.

But hey!!! Don't wait till it hits the US to notice its already happening. Our wonderful fundamentalist christians here have already help pass laws in Uganda and other third world countries that either imprison and/or kill gay people and their supporters. So the Gay Holocaust is already a reality and we have our religious nut balls of this country to thank for it.

Am I afraid no... I have my Barrett M107, with brand a new firing pin and bolt charger. They can try to get within a quarter mile, if they can even get can get that far. And I am not afraid to die for my people. As Martin Luther King once said, "A man not willing to risk his life for his cause in life is not a man in my eyes."

If these fundies want a war then another civil war is what they will get. However, its a lose-lose battle for them. If we win, there will be extreme separation between church and state and possible of the prohibition on hate speech under religious guise. If they win... well Canada and Europe will most likely glass this country before we glass the world with our Rapture ready mentalities.

Oh P.S. if you dont know what the rapture is just read the book series called "left behind." That will give you an idea on what these people believe and wish to see happen in their life times. Or you could just watch the documentary The God Who Wasnt There by Brian Flemmings. He makes mention about it in his movie that sums it up quite well.

You know Chris, I still can't believe that the even after these many years, the only people that seem to be discussed, when it comes to the attrocities of the holocaust, are Jews. I am going on my 20th year out of high school, and many school (let alone school districts) still don't teach about the LGBT victims during that period of time.

During the holocaust, the LGBT victims were the lowest on the totem pole, therefore were treated worse than Jews. That is NOT to say I don't have sympathy for the Jews, but without the knowledge being taught to our youth, they never learn the information unless they specifically seek it out.

It is sad no high school textbooks mention the people that were persecuted because they were gay. Children should be taught that part of history. Unfortunately there are a lot of people that are blind to the fact that there is persecution of gay people.

I certainly would not discount a gay holocaust, especially if things get worse in this country and a right wing theocratic group seizes power. A hell of a lot of people hate GLBTQ people and if they believe that we are responsible, I could easily see them killing GLbTQs so that God will lift the punishment visited on America.

If such a group takes power, I can see Canada and/or the rest of the world glassing the US before it glasses the world because of the idiotic belief in the Rapture.

I don't think that a GLBTQ holocaust is immanent but rational Americans should do everything possible to keep the religious reich out of power and a GLBTQ holocaust from happening.

I get upset when discussions on the Holocaust focus solely on the Jews. They were not the only people murdered by the Nazis--in fact, if my memory serves me rightly, the Jews were about half of those slaughtered by Hitler's minion. There were also Gypsies, those with handicaps, the developmentally-disabled, the mentally-ill, AND GLBTQ people. I'm not saying that no Jews were killed but they weren't the only ones! The Holocaust was not solely about the Jews. Stop treating it as if it was!

Ioan, you are right we don’t hear about other groups/class of people just the Jews. The Holocaust was primarily about them and in the process other groups /class were affected, no?  Besides, they were the largest group of people to be eliminated isn’t that right? I don't think the Gay Holocaust imminent either! 

On a positive note I read Argentina will soon recognize same sex marriage it looks like it’s a done deal despite there’s a large Catholic group? And Uruguay looks like it going to follow in their foot-step?

Oh well the text book we used certainly had it in there about gays and the holocaust. Our teacher special ordered our books and we had to share them with the students of the other classes. They were college government and history textbooks and they were a great facet in changing the minds of people in those classes. However for standard high school books to include us, we first have to be seen as a suspect class by the USSC, and then on top of that see as human beings who are marginalized for a part of our being, like race, before we are acknowledge as worthy for our struggle to live to be seen as worthy by the publishing companies of those books.

Yeah, there were several groups that were persecuted and it seems that the Jews got all of the attention: the Nazis did make a lot of noise about the “Jewish problem.” It was seriously f-ed up what happened to ALL of them, Jews included. Gays, mentally ill, Romani (Gypsies), Jehovah Witnesses, and many more were also sent to camps and executed. All were victims and all deserve to be remembered.

I think mr. reed that its because too many folks have gotten used to letting the religious "charities" do all the work to the point where theyve become too dependant on them.

Although charity is a good and christian thing to engage in, I would think that it would be a good thing to remember that christianity (originally) and Jesus were more focused on preaching and teaching.

There is some mention of charity in the writings of the first century apostles and there is no mention of trying to influence the politics of the day other than giving witness before the same authorites that thought to persecute them.

Once christianity began to meddle and become a part of the secular affairs, then it became a perversion (in my mind). The RCC and other "christian" groups moved very far away from Christ's example.

What was that South Park Episode where Butters goes to a Christian camp to be cured from being bi-curious? I wonder what the suicide rates are with the kids in the actual programs?

I know Matt and Trey take things to extremes, but sometimes that's the only way to drive a point home.

Even if it was just one kid committing suicide...It would be one too many in my opinion.

http://catholicssuck.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/archdiocese-of-st-paul-and-minneapolis-curing-the-queers/