" Homophobia equals Apartheid - Most Rev. Desmond Tutu, DD
   Retired Archbishop of Johannesburg, and Primate of South Africa

Apartheid is race-based discrimination. What we're talking about here is behaviorally-based.  Seems to me that they are two different things.   

Kurt it is not a behavior it is who we are. Groups like the AFA continue to fight to keep us from having rights, because they truly believe that if we have rights more will choose to be gay. As long as you believe it is a choice and not genetics, society will continue to harm or kill us. It is very much like apartheid.  

The issue in the United States on LGBT issues, particularly, seems to come to the issue of gay marriage.  While San Francisco is considered to be the capitol of homeosexuality, the California voters have put forth, and voted in favor of, Proposition 8 to actually rewrite a consitution to include discrimation of rights by probiting homosexuals to lawfully marry.

The issue here is really not one of whether one agrees with a homosexual lifestyle or not, but rather whether we believe in a democratic constitution and the protection of civil rights and liberties under the law.  You can made the argument about discrimation based on behavior - but I personally do not see a difference between this kind of legally condoned discrimination than that of the ban on interracial marriage which existed in this country until only a few decades ago.

Sean, it seems that the AFA ideologues are here to spew their spiritual violence coupled with biological ignorance. After thirty-five years of ministry, it never ceases to amaze me how the same biological, theological and legal pieces of disinformation is repeated ad nauseam.

Pamela, thank you for your sentiments...and may I very respectfully provide you with better words....."homosexual and heterosexual may describe OUR different psychosexual orientations....we are human beings who live and love others. I have done so for the same man for 33 years and we have a 6 yr old son. So same or opposite sex coupling is better. It speaks to love rather than sex FOR BOTH OF US.

A "lifestyle" with respect, is a socio-economic term.....it speaks to how you spend your income, and how you live REGARDLESS OF YOUR PSYCHOSEXUAL ORIENTATION.

Pamela, you should visit www.soulforce.org for a song by Ray Boltz that highlights the Lovings.....who made Loving v Virginia end the ban on interracial marriage in 1967.

There is one reason why the Union of South Africa joined Canada, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Norway and Nepal in providing its citizens with a Federal Marriage Act.
marriage is about love and not gender...
bi/gay/lesbian singles and couples fun meet http://www.FindBilover.com

Kurt, as many have noted, religion is a lifestyle choice. It enjoys full protection under the Constitution, because it's recognized as an important part of many people's lives and beneficial to their happiness. Should we lift those protections simply because religion isn't genetic?

That said, evidence that LGBT orientations are biological and inborn has been mounting for some time and it seems cruel to deny them the same recognition for their life partnerships that everyone else has.

I think John Stewart hit it right on the head during a recent Daily Show episode when he asked Mike Huckabee "At what age did you DECIDE to be straight?"

This is not a religious theocracy.  It is a free democracy.. If you want a theocracy based on Christian values go some place else.  I live in America, where we are free from the tyrany of religion. 

For the record
Gay is not a choice
This country wasn't founded on Christian values it was founded on freedom from Anyone deciding what values are to be enforced.  So keep your religion out of my life.

Contrary to the opinions of some, the Old Testament is not the only place in the Bible that condemns homosexuality.  We previously mentioned Hebrews 13:4, where Paul exhorted us to honor the marriage bed and keep it pure.  In Romans 1:26-27 Paul is very specific, “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.”  In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul wrote, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.”  The Greek word from which the King James Bible gets the word “effeminate” is malakos, which literally means something soft to the touch, but is used as a negative metaphor to refer to a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man.  The “abusers of themselves with mankind” are those men who engage in unnatural sexual relations with other men – homosexuals. That is also how the NASB, the NKJV, and the NIV translate that verse.  Also in the New Testament is verse 7 from the book of Jude, defining exactly why Sodom and Gomorrah were punished – homosexuality.  Having established that homosexuality is a sin, we must now face that we live in increasingly pro-homosexual societies.  The media and the schools have become mouthpieces for the gay subculture, and are working hard to marginalize those of us who take a moral, biblical stance on the issue.  School sex education programs based on the curriculum developed by SIECUS champion homosexuality as being normal and healthy, while encouraging teenagers to ignore the values of their parents if their parents feel homosexuality is wrong.  “Gay” television shows are popping up on networks like Bravo and on other networks as well.  

An apt comparison

I think the question is a valid one and should not be made a trivialized by a religious view because religions are so screwed up when it comes to consistence that there explanation for anything can not be trusted.And anyone like Mr Andrews here who equates homosexuality with pedophilia and insest is so ignorant in view that they are delusional and their word can not be trusted either. You seem to forget when your jesus gave wine to people by magic and everyone within the sound of my voice knows alcohol is a poison, so once again inconsistent with rational thinking and therefore invalid thought. And you Mr Andrews are evidently a sinner ,for you seem to have a lot of perverted ideas in your head and on your mind. Perhaps you should see someone about that.....

I do need to clarify something. For the record I must at least answer the question at hand. Yes, the laws banning homosexuality ,whatever the source, and I think the source is religious not colonial edict, are exactly like aparteid as well as NAZIsm, catholicism, christian, they are all oppressors of their followers and make up archane laws that have nothing to do with others or the running of a civilization. Any class of citizens who is segragated for any reason is a victim of aparteid. After all isn't the english translation for the word "to seperate" ? or take apart? Hell I don't know but I'm sure it has nothing to do with cooperation.

Ok, I think we're agreed that Apartheid is race-based. Please, tell me [what]-based is homosexuality.  Is it behavior-based, biologically-based, lifestyle-based, culturally-based, etc.  Whatever, homosexuality is based on, it is definitely not race-based.  This it differs from Apartheid,  which is race-based.  Homosexuality is not race-based, while Apartheid is race-based.  That's the difference.

what a downer to see religious right fanatics spouting their bibilical garbage on a site dedicated to positive secular government change. 

their references to ancient texts written by many,  many people up to hundreds of years after the so-called events occurred have absolutely no bearing on the values and laws of our nation,  no matter how hard they lobby and spend money to push their rigid, hateful agenda;  and how convincing to bigots they have so far been.

the founding fathers must be rolling over in their graves over this whole cruel farce perpetrated against citizens of the country they created with amazing vision.

thomas jefferson,   for one,  insisted that separation of church and state was the cornerstone of our union.  a deist,  he despised christianity with every bone in his body.  (look up thomas jefferson and his vision,  look up deism;  if you don't know these basic facts.)
  
hey,  i know these haters have as much right to sign on here as i do.

(digression: has anyone read the university studies on homophobic men?  seems non-homophobic str8 men show no arousal at gay porn,  but 4 out of 5 homophobes show measurable arousal.  do you creeps protest too much?) 

 christian dogma  (and ,  indeed,  only certain particularly intolerant 'kinds' of christian dogma  ~ as many compassionate and enlghtened christians support marriage equality) has no place in the laws of our land!
and i don't give a rat's butt about their surveys showing that 'most americans' don't want to see marriage equality made into law.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE MAJORITY THINKS THEY WANT. 
 a majority of americans were for the longest time against african-american rights too;  many still are) 
 BECAUSE EQUAL RIGHTS ARE NOT ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE SUPPORT AN ISSUE.
EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW ARE GUARANTEED IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND THE CONSTITUTION!

you want to belong to a church that will never marry gay couples;  go right ahead.  that is your right under our freedom of religion.
but you will NOT be permitted to bring your intolerance to the table of secular government much longer.
you will FAIL in the long run.

even if mr. obama with his slap-in-the-face-to-some-of-his-most-ardent-supporters-rick-warren-fiasco were to go back on his words of the campaign,  he will fail too.
(i think he will come around to stay the course,  but he'll need to be held mighty accountable if he were to waffle.  and of course the word 'marriage' seems to stick in his supposedly christian craw as it is).
ther battle has been joined.  equality will eventually win.  but it must be sooner rather than later.

   *PASSIONATE STR8 ALLY AGAINST HATE:  FREEFLO*

Much mis-information on this particular subject. The monikers and banner are a convention largely based in time and space. In other words, fashion and fads, these will pass. Our affluent society is naturally creative and may be too self-based. therefore we will not solve the problems we are struggling to solve simply because of our selfishness. That is frustrating to understand So I believe we may need to move to a more "natural law" perception and that, my friends, is not comforting at all. That is exactly what we need to do.

This thread is for a gay rights discussion. It is not a forum for your religious agenda to oppress those that are different from you.

This country is not run by the bible, if anything it is more like Gone With The Wind. Another story and internationally the 2nd best selling book of all time next to the "story" of the bible. So unless you want me to start the Church Of Tara I suggest you stop posting hateful qoutes from your storybook.

This article is not about gay marriage, but she is right.  Unless we must show respect for all or it will be revealed that we have respect for none.

Let's not be close-minded, people. How are same-sex couples really affecting your life in a negative way? I figure that it is their lives; they are happy. So, live and let live. And, we must stop impressing ideologies that condemn the livelihood of others who are different. Regardless of what the Bible says, it is not your life to judge nor your decision to make. It is truly no business of yours to even criticize or comment on the situation; neither I. And, these examples about paraphilias in comparison to homosexuality is absolutely radical. If you know anything, homosexuality is just sexual variation much as heterosexuality is. So, by utilizing examples about "bestiality" or "pedaphilia" is completely ineffective as well as lacking in basic knowledge about human sexuality.

As far as this discussion board goes, I do not know if I would necessarily associate the new laws against same-sex couples (adoption, marriage, etc.) with Apartheid. But, I would see a semblance with the two subjects. I think that we need to allow for diversity to thrive in America, considering our country is supposed to be a mixed salad (not a melting pot), and allow for same-sex couples to marry. They have every right of everyone else and by eliminating these rights we are as a country making them less than human, which is not right. The difference between maybe them and you is simply sexual orientation. I, myself being heterosexual, feel that they deserve every right to do as they please much as I have the right to do as I please.

There is no conclusive evidence that Homosexuality is genetic.  Personally its my opinion that the claim that it is, is simply an attempt to give validation to what mearly amounts to a personal choice.  The very idea, that a group of people would push to have rights granted to them for a sexual preference is truely ludicrous.  If we were to grant them said rights we might as well give specific rights to the fan base of a particular sports team.  Since that is also a personal choice, they would have as legitimate a case as the homosexual community claims they have.

It is simply a choice, a preference, nothing more.  There are so many cases that could easily prove that it is.  Yet the lgbt community refuses to acknowlege it and continues to propogate this lie.Personally I adamantly support any ban on same sex marriage.  I have no problem with civil unions, but marriage is and should continue to be between a man and a woman.  They made the choice to be in a same sex relationship.   As the bible says, you reap what you sow.  We must all live with the choices we make,  and sexual orientation is an important one, a life changing one.

Hey
I Think homo sex should be banne all over the world

PERSONALLY,

In the United States, where my ancestors first came on the Mayflower, and issued a Compact against Theocracy, I come here to state"

I DO NOT WANT MY PUBLIC SERVANTS TO PLACE THEIR HAND ON THE CONSTITUTION, AND SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO THE BIBLE

I WANT MY PUBLIC SERVANTS TO PLACE THEIR HAND ON SACRED TEXTS OF THEIR BELIEF, AND SWEAR ALLEGIANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION.

THE SUBJECT IS: ARE LAWS BANNING HOMOSEXUALITY LIKE APARTHEID AND MENTION IS MADE THAT THE UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA IS ONE OF THE DOZEN STATES WILL FULL CIVIL MARRIAGE RIGHTS FOR SAME SEX COUPLES. IT IS ALSO WHERE OUR ANGLICAN PRIMATE SAID THIS:


The former head of the Anglican Church in Southern Africa made these statements at the launching of the book "Sex, Love & Homophobia", published last week by Amnesty International UK. Mr Tutu has written the foreword to the human rights group's book.

- We struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about; our very skins, wrote the prominent Church leader. "It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given," he added. 

Dr. Tutu says he could not have fought against the discrimination of apartheid and not also fight against the discrimination which homosexuals endure. "And I am proud that in South Africa, when we won the chance to build our own new constitution, the human rights of all have been explicitly enshrined in our laws," he said, adding that he hoped this soon would also be the case in other countries.

South Africa is so far the only country in the world where the constitution guarantees equal rights non-regarding sexual orientation. This is in stark contrast to most of South Africa's neighbour countries, where homosexulality often is punished by the penal code. Only recenty, a Botswana High Court ruling reaffirmed this legal practice.

- Yet, all over the world, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people are persecuted, writes Archbishop Tutu. "We treat them as pariahs and push them outside our communities. We make them doubt that they too are children of God - and this must be nearly the ultimate blasphemy. We blame them for what they are," he adds.

He also regrets the dominant view among his church colleagues. "Churches say that the expression of love in a heterosexual monogamous relationship includes the physical, the touching, embracing, kissing, the genital act - the totality of our love makes each of us grow to become increasingly godlike and compassionate. If this is so for the heterosexual, what earthly reason have we to say that it is not the case with the homosexual?" Dr. Tutu asks.

Also within the Anglican Church, homosexuality is highly controversial and an ongoing conflict has threatened to split the global Anglican Communion. The current head of the Anglican Church in Southern Africa, Njongonkulu Ndungane, has been an outspoken supporter of including homosexuals in the Church community, putting himself in a strong-worded conflict with other African Church leaders.

In its new book, Amnesty reports on the life stories of gay and lesbian people around the world. These include Poliyana Mangwiro who was a leading member of Gays and Lesbians of Zimbabwe despite President Robert Mugabe's protestations that homosexuality is "against African traditions".

The book also includes the story of Simon Nkoli, a South African ANC activist who after spending four years in prison under apartheid went on to be the face of the struggle for gay rights in the new South Africa. Further, stories of hate, fear and persecution are reported from Nigeria, Egypt and other countries, in addition to reports from the states where homosexuality punishable by death; including Sudan, Mauritania and some Northern Nigerian states.

For Archishop Tutu, these "destructive forces" of "hatred and prejudice" are an evil. "A parent who brings up a child to be a racist damages that child, damages the community in which they live, damages our hopes for a better world. A parent who teaches a child that there is only one sexual orientation and that anything else is evil denies our humanity and their own too," Dr. Tutu concludes.

To all of you who believe that homosexuality is a choice, then I must assume you "Chose" to be heterosexual?

When did you? What morning did you wake up and say, I think I will be heterosexual today?

I am sure you are the same people who throw their kids out of their homes out of "christian" love.

Keep your narrowminded and false ideas of Jesus and love out of my laws.

This is a secular nation.  It's not a "Christian Nation" nor was it founded to be one.  It was founded to be a free nation with liberty and Justice for all.  Freedom of Religion is important, but so is freedom FROM Religion.

Several of my change.org friends have asked that I explain terms like

"Dominionism" and "Theocracy" beyond their obvious meanings.

The best and oldest watchdog on these Right Wing Religionists is www.theocracywatch.org  

This website suggests that you take it in a little bit at a time. These Religionists have controlled certain fundamentalist denominations and the Republican Party for nearly three decades. They have influenced many poorly educated and low information citizens. It is time that we shine a light on them.

DON'T TELL ME WHO TO LOVE.   www.soulforce.org

Ok, first of all... what is all this talk of god and the bible? what does someones religious beliefs have to do with OUR right to be who we are? whatever happened to seperation of church and state? it is out constitutional RIGHT to be married haven't you ever heard of the persuit of happiness? what if being with a member of the same sex makes us happy? and another note... i'm a lesbian.. if i were to get a sex change and become a man then could i marry another woman?

Segregation of Gay Humans, Apartheid, yes they are similar..
Have you ever noticed that the most ignorant statements come from those who quote the bible."The very idea, that a group of people would push to have rights granted to them for a sexual preference is truely ludicrous." "the lgbt community refuses to acknowledge it and continues to propagate this lie." ????
Oh please man why the bleep would a whole group of people all suffer so and fight so hard for our lives, our families, our country, put their life on the line(like Harvey Milk) and yes your future children with the motivation of tricking you?  Think about it.  That is completely irrational. 
When did you "decide" to be straight?  Human sexuality is fluid.  Just as our skin colors and our eye color...variations of the same aspect.  Our human race is so caught up with labels and boxes in our myopic approach to life that we make ourselves sick with irrational wasteful thoughts. Sexuality is not a black or white issue.  Besides who would just wake up one day and say "ya know what I think I would like to choose to strip away all my rights" oh yeah today "I will choose to be discriminated against today!  Do me a favor read more books and broaden your mind.  Better yet why don't you just try to see for a moment how this discrimination is a horrible distraction from truly working on helping our planet survive and stop children from dying of starvation? Yes just like the question states "laws banning Homosexuality are "like" Apartheid because they segregate persons based on a particular characteristic "like" color. Let’s put this ridiculous "choice" question to rest.  Even IF IT WAS, WHICH IT IS NOT...OR MAYBE SOMETIMES SOME PEOPLE LIKE BI'S ARE BOTH YOU CAN NOT USE THIS AS SOME ACCEPTABLE PREPOSTEROUS EXCUSE TO TAKE ANY HUMAN'S CIVIL RIGHTS AWAY. ENOUGH ALREADY. JUST BE FAIR TO YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS and work towards being a better person each of us and stop obsessing about what two adults do in bed! When are we going to evolve past this silly waste of good energy our human race could put towards solving global warming and care more about food and fight poverty? Those that discriminate against the LGBT people should be ashamed of themselves for their lack of compassion and civility. They should look within and ask themselves why they feel this prejudice? Start with that.
 Namaste.                                                                      

""If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."  Does the same philosophy apply when it comes to LGBT rights?"

It applies to any injustice you see and don't take a stand to speak out against. 

Charlotte, I LOVE your last point.  Irony is lost, though, on close-minded people.  :) 

I always have to ask, what do gay couples do that hurts hetero couples?  And WHY oh WHY do we have to argue for people to be happy???   I have many friends who are gay, and if anything they inspire me to be more open and loving, honest & accepting.  They don't make me want to be gay, they make me want to be peaceful & beautiful.  When my gay friends had their civil union ceremony 8 years ago, it was like a breath of fresh air - a relief.  So I ask all the detractors how is stripping people of their happiness helpful to this country in any way?

Religion IS a lifestyle choice.  No one has the answers, anyone who says they "know" what God was thinking or how exactly to interpret the texts (even priests, etc.) isn't someone I'm going to listen to.  Raymond reminds me of my former pastor - who was humble enough to admit that he didn't "know" God, but tried to live according to His actions.

It's not hard: love thy neighbor as thyself.  Right?  Peace.  Kindness.  Compassion.  It isn't hard.

Wow...  Simon your comments are so why you fictitious book reading myopic people are so scary...  “Gay” television shows are popping up on networks like Bravo and on other networks as well." was your statement.  My racist mom said the same thing when black people got "black" shows.  You actually make me laugh.  Can you read another book man?  You sound so scared of "gays"  lol... so so sad.  It is so sad how religions keep people so locked up in a world of fear and irrational split up, scattered, borrowed, archaic thought patterns. Do you have any of your own thoughts?

Wow...  Simon your comments are so why you fictitious book reading myopic people are so scary...  “Gay” television shows are popping up on networks like Bravo and on other networks as well." was your statement.  My racist mom said the same thing when black people got "black" shows.  You actually make me laugh.  Can you read another book man?  You sound so scared of "gays"  lol... so so sad.  It is so sad how religions keep people so locked up in a world of fear and irrational split up, scattered, borrowed, archaic thought patterns. Do you have any of your own thoughts?

Yes--it seems just plain goofy to me why, here in the USA,two consenting adult citizens of sound mind can't be allowed to form a civil Union/marriage for whatever reason they want to, and have it recognized as equally valid as any other.
While I personally think marriage/union should be for "love", if you want to civilly join because you two can't live without each other's home-grown vegetables---it's NONE OF MY FRICKIN BUSINESS--- please keep personal religious views out of other's bodies and homes.

Hi Monnie.....there are many straight persons of good conscience and justice seekers who live here.....thank you for your thoughts.

I'm personally glad that you made it your "frickin business" to come and share your compassion. You can be a very liberal person of faith but want this nation to remain secular, plural and free from theocracy.

Civil "Union" is a second-class word. It describes inferior rights. It says that some human beings love differently than you do. Your love doesn't deserve the rights that others have.  Society uses Civil Marriage to do that. Your clerk's office has a MARRIAGE LICENSE BUREAU.

At one time straight blacks had to jump the broom and have their union registered in an animal "stud book" along with livestock and prize racehorses. It took until 1967, 1967 - to get straight blacks legally allowed to marry outside their race.

THANK YOU MONNIE, YOU DESERVE A COMPLIMENT.

In the U.S., at least, all of this could be settled by making it so the state does not issue "marriage licenses," but instead issues only "civil union" licenses. Then it would be up to each couple whether they get a "civil union" at their local court, or a "marriage" by their local church (which would still be called a "civil union" by the law in this case). Since "marriage" is a "religious institution" to so many people of faith, keep "marriage" completely out of the political/legal system and allow "marriage" to only exist as an act that is performed at a church/place of faith or by a church official. That way, each individual church can decide how they want to interpret the Bible/Koran etc; in addition, people who are against it cannot easily argue with another church whether or not they can join two people in "marriage" like they can argue with the government.

This whole debate is about a group of people who simply want to be treated the same as another group of people. The people who are against equality legislation, such as Mike Huckabee, say, "marriage is not a civil right," so make it so that "marriage" is no longer a political/legal consideration for anyone.

That's my opinion, anyway.

William - I disagree beginning with your first three words. Marriage laws are international. This is why you do not have to marry every time you travel or change countries. Marriage for same-sex couples is guaranteed our minority class under the Constitution, regardless of DOMA which all consider to be unconstitutional at most or unworkable at least.

HUMAN RIGHTS ARE EGALITARIAN, NOT DIVIDED INTO HIERARCHICAL SUBSETS WITH NO RECIPROCITY.

With all due respect, you do not have to change anything. Marriage is a civil contract and not a religious theocratic ordinance. You do not need a religious ceremony to be married.
No right wing theocrat would be willing to surrender their marriage licence.

The problem is that clergy have been given the right to sign marriage licenses and tgherefore blur the separation of church and state for this civil contract . The Europeans have the answer. You go to the city hall in the morning and the mayor marries you. That's it. You are married. Go to church for a religious ceremony without legal standing if you want it.

Amertican clergy should do what I did. I surrendered my license to legally marry Amerrican citizens. I will bless their marriage after the civil marriage has been contracted.

For crying out loud!! as My Mom used to say. This subject is really no one's business but those who are actively involved in the practice or behavior or whatev er label you wish to put on a person desire and reasons for living. What's wrong with you people, don't you understand that the constitution guarantees the right to the pursuit of happiness and it doesn't say how. If a man or woman is happy to marry one of the same sex what business is it of yours anyway? Will they move to your neighborhood and march up and down the street until all men are gay? Is that your fear??  What an absurd way to live ,in fear of something being doine outof sight in a bedroom of another. uUnless you're a peeping tom then you have no v business making any laws regarding homosexuals or any other group of ctizens. PERIOD. It's that simple